John: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development. To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of the present professional today. We wanted to talk to you about giving and receiving feedback, and this is such an important part of our professional and personal lives. We are really. Giving and receiving feedback all the time as we interact with one another and are we doing it? Mindfully, so we wanted to sit down today and unpack a few strategies and you know research insights on to you know What is feedback? How is it broken down into its parts? And what can you do to receive feedback? Well and Be able to deliver feedback more powerfully something that resonates with people, something that people can learn from and something that you can learn from because that's the purpose of feedback to find out where we stand and move forward with positive energy for something that we can actually take action on. Yeah.

Tony: I think feedback is super important to just any professional endeavor, whether you are the leader, CEO, board chair, board member, individual contributor, or even a volunteer. You know, I think that It really doesn't matter where you sit when it comes to an organization or hierarchy. Feedback is there to make us better. And I think that it's important for the people who are responsible to give feedback that they also have some tools in their tool belt and toolkit to make that experience delightful for everyone. Because it's easy to be critical about someone and make them feel like they need to improve But what about the good things? You know, what about the observations that you've kept throughout the year or the time you've spent working with them or watching them? You know, where are you writing that information down? You know, so many different tactics and things that come with that. So I'm excited to get into the topic. And I know that you have some expertise and experience and from a research standpoint. So I'm interested to learn more about that as well.

John: It's just as important, like you said, to acknowledge, acknowledge the positives as well. and understand what they're doing well and why, what specifically they're doing well. So we'll get into a little bit more of that later as well, but I wanted to hit that feedback's important in any authentic relationship that you're investing in as well. you know, even outside of the workplace when you think of your, your partnership or, you know, a deep friendship, a place where you can let someone know how something made you feel and make an honest request about that is a safe space for deep authenticity in a relationship. So it's, you know, we talked a little bit about this in the, you know, in our episode on the relationships, but like having that, Check-in meeting or having an even a designated time where you can, you know, have a safe space to provide feedback in Relationships can go a long way as well. So just wanted to highlight that it's all across our lives and I hope that today our listeners get a little bit better perspective on what feedback is and how it can show up in different ways and So, with that, I'll dive into the frameworks that I use with a lot of my clients. And a lot of the frameworks that I use are based in Doug and Sheila Heen's work. They wrote Difficult Conversations, Thanks for the Feedback, and Thanks for the Feedback was one of the foundations for a lot of the way that I look at The what a feedback conversation is so feedback conversations come in three ways. There's evaluation you know, letting someone know where they stand, you know, ranking performance ratings, you know, just how you're standing. Then there's coaching. So coaching is exactly what it sounds like. You are coaching the employee about a specific thing that they might be able to do better, a place where there may be a chance for growth. And that could be something small, that could be ongoing, or it could be also within a performance review. But it's important to be able to separate what coaching is versus evaluation. Because a lot of times in our coaching feedback is we end up labeling people as something. You know, you are a poor communicator. It's like, okay, so I've been evaluated as poor in communication. That's not a coaching feedback, right? What specifically was poor? What did you observe? What could I do differently? It's, you know, getting to the meat of it to provide coaching instead of evaluation. So I hope that kind of lays out what coaching and evaluation is. And then the third one is appreciation or acknowledgement. Um, not specifically just good job or great work, but you deepen the experience of your acknowledgement and appreciation whenever you're able to be super specific about it. You know, what, what did you think was great? about my work. Good job doing what specifically did you notice? So when you're able to acknowledge someone for like, you know, Tony, I just wanted to acknowledge you for like your discipline and integrity because you always show up to our meetings on time and I can always count on you. And that's just something that has always been a foundation of our relationship rather than, you know, Tony, I just, I just really appreciate you, man. It's, it's great to work with you here. Yeah. I see the difference. Right. And that was, that was an honest appreciation. That wasn't just an example. Thank you, sir. Of course. Of course. What thoughts do you have about those, the different types of feedback there, Tony, or examples of experiencing any of those?

Tony: Well, I mean, I think that what you just described is the difference between a present leader and a non-present leader, right? As we talk about the present professional, I think a big part of it is actually being focused on the person and seeing them as a human and seeing them as specifically what things they bring to your workplace or your environment. I think that a lot of times, I just gave a workshop on this, actually, when you think about the kind of the feedback loop in a sense. It wasn't about the feedback loop, but when you think about the feedback loop of performance reviews, sometimes that's the only time that a leader will check in with a subordinate or a staff member. is the annual time that it's required or the biannual time that it's required. But there are other check-ins that you can do along the year that will enhance the relationship. And I think for you as a leader, again, allow you to take notes or actually take time to make note of what the person is doing throughout the year so that when you have that one that one time or that annual conversation is actually authentic because you've been checking in with them all year and you can bring up things that you might have talked about two months ago or two weeks ago or even two days ago as opposed to Yeah, well last year we sat down and these were what we talked about and here's my feedback on the goals that were set and the things that we wanted you to improve on. It's like, you only talk to me once a year. So how can you really assess my performance if you just, you know, how can I trust your feedback to be valid if I only talk to you once a year? But I definitely think that what you described earlier is the difference between the present leader and a non-present leader. And it takes work, you know, to pause and to think about someone authentically and really give them some feedback that is not just a box being checked. and you're just kind of doing it because you have to. Big difference.

John: That is a fantastic point. It's like how do you even notice something specific to acknowledge or coach them on if you're not actually present in the moment whenever you observe something? The beautiful point is that's why I mean everything comes back to self-awareness man and being aware of and being in the moment and aware of happening what's what's around you and Even you know, even if you're not a you know manager or leader right now It's like even being aware of what's happening around you because ideally, you know There's in these cultures we can provide feedback across below and above you know being able to provide and that's another thing as leaders when your people when someone is willing to give you constructive feedback upline that is like the most valuable piece of information that you can get and it takes them an extraordinary amount of courage to do that for you And, you know, it's, it's like taking that as a gift is something that's huge. So this being present in, you know, observing feedback that you can give people in the workplace or, you know, even outside the workplace is something that you can cultivate now. Right. And then, you know, then when you become a leader or, you know, if you choose that path, you already have the muscle built. But really, your organization and people in general need your feedback now. So if you can practice delivering that in a way that is supportive of someone's growth and really effective, now, then it's just a gift to the world. And so I 100% agree with you. It starts with being present, self-aware, and then, you know, being effective in your delivery. But one thing about feedback that doesn't, that isn't talked about much. And the reason I really liked that book, thanks for the feedback is because it talks specifically about how to receive feedback well. And that was really interesting to me because there's so much out there on how to give effective feedback, you know, give the the sandwich technique, the formulas for it, all kinds of different ways to deliver feedback in a way that, you know, can be perfect. It can be professional. But when it comes to receiving, I was like, wow, this is something that's really new. So talk about being self-aware. They really start off with what gets in the way of us receiving feedback well, and some of those key triggers that get in the way that stop us from listening. So, some of those key triggers that they list that stop us from listening are, one, truth triggers, identity triggers, and relationship triggers are the three core things that just rip us out of the room, that take us off our game, that stop us from being productive and getting to what's behind the label of the feedback. So, truth triggers is this just isn't true. You know, the feedback you're giving me, I just, I don't believe it's not true. You must've heard a lie from someone like this is ridiculous. So you're done listening because you don't see any truth in what they're saying. But the thing is, is, you know, what, what part of it could be true? You know, are you throwing out an opportunity for 10% of that feedback? That could be true. That could be something that could totally change your behavior and performance in the workplace. So are you throwing out your listening because you believe 90% of it is false? So the whole thing's false and then you're going to lose that 10% gold within the feedback that you can dig for. Second one, identity is one that's deeply tied to your growth first fixed mindset. So when we have more of a fixed mindset, identity triggers come strongly, very strong to us. So it's, you know, your whole life you've believed you've been, you know, really strong technically and with your attention to detail. And you get a piece of feedback that, you know, your work has been somewhat haphazard and, you know, they've noticed like a couple of different errors that were in or inconsistencies. You know, so then that identity trigger comes up of I've held so tightly that I am someone that Pays super attention to detail and is super accurate if I'm getting this feedback Then what have I hung my whole life on what why am I even here? You know what? I must I'm probably just a terrible employee Wow, you know, I'll never get better and Wow. So it's like ripping out that sense of identity that you've been so tied to. And, you know, that talk about taking you out of listening, you know, that can take you out of participating. Yeah. But like there, it's just boom. I don't even know who I am anymore. Why listen to the feedback? It's not worth it. Then relationship triggers, you know, this can come up in, you know, in close relationships, but then also in the workplace as well. You and your manager had, you know, had one time been coworkers and, you know, you have this friendship, you know, you get beers together, maybe you golf together, maybe, you know, something. And then they sit down to give you an evaluation or they sit down to give you coaching feedback based on something that they heard or something that they observed. And you're immediately like, who are you to say this to me? You're supposed to be my friend. You're supposed to support me in this. I thought we were in this together. So it's now you're letting like that, that perceived relationship dynamic get in the way again of you finding some gold in what they're saying. It's like really what is their intention though? Like their intention may be to just make you better to help you stand out amongst your peers. And they're trying to give you this piece of coaching feedback and you're throwing it out the door. Man. Yeah. So those are the three core ways that, you know, that the dog and Sheila Heen expose, like what takes us out of listening. And I thought that's been like a very powerful framework for some of my clients to hear as well.

Tony: And I think that's very powerful and very valid. I think each one of them have unique pieces to it that make it true. And every time you talked about one of them, it kind of just brought up a different example in my own life where I've either seen it happen or been a part of the process. And I think that You know, a lot of it too comes down to where the individual is who is receiving the feedback. Well, it's both people, but for the recipient, where they are in their life or in their journey of, you know, self-awareness or self-discovery. Because if you have the mindset or the growth mindset to say, you know, I can learn from anybody. then you can take the feedback and you can pick what parts you believe to be true and work on those that do have that 10% goal, you know, or you can, some people take it all the wrong way, you know, and believe that everything that someone says could be true and then they receive it negatively and then they go down a rabbit hole of either, you know, Who are you? Like you said, who are you to tell me this or that? Or let that affect their identity to a degree where now they don't really know who they are anymore because of what somebody said. And you can see that happen in layers of people, you know, you can see that happen where people bring up things that happened to them in high school or K through 12 where someone gave them feedback, a teacher or a classmate, and now they've labeled themselves as this, you know, and then that carries with them or even a parent. So I think that those three things are extremely valid. What I wanted to ask you is, from your research and experience, is you talked about practice. So if you're the person that's giving the feedback or you're responsible to give feedback, how does someone actually practice this when you're dealing with real humans and real emotions?

John: Well, that's I mean Empathy is key, right? It's you know, holding space for people's reactions feelings and thoughts and letting them be valid like understanding that this may be shocking to you and I mentioned, you know, you don't know what their intention is if you're delivering feedback communicate your intention, you know, I'm delivering this to you here today because I feel it's my responsibility to help you develop in the track that you want to grow in. And I feel that holding this back from you is detrimental. So no matter how this received, I wanted you to know that my goal in delivering this to you is so that you can be successful, more successful. Pre-empting a feedback conversation with with your intention, you know really helps them be grounded in that Okay, regardless of what this person is about to say, you know, they're saying it because they have my back my best interest in mind so that can be a crucial way and to kind of create the container and But then allow space for emotion as well. You know, if someone takes a piece of feedback, challenging, it's like, you know, be able to empathize with, you know, understand that, you know, this, this may be challenging and you may be feeling a little frustrated because, you know, you need some more clarity on this. You know, let me help you with that. You know, it's like really approaching it with empathy. And then, you know, I always tell my leaders that, you know, somewhere in there, whether you start with it or not, it's, you know, always ask, what feedback do you have for yourself? a lot of times your people will give themselves the exact feedback that you have to give them. And then you can just work on the data and steps to move forward. So a lot of times it's uncomfortable. It's, but it's all, can you work through the discomfort and reframe it into that positive intention that we talked about? Then when you deliver a piece of feedback and you ask them, Like what, what feedback do you have for yourself? Boom. Sometimes that opens up the whole conversation to exactly what you're going to say and then you move forward. So yeah, I'd say empathy, communicating your intention and being specific as well. And we'll talk, I'll talk a little bit more about that, the feedback equation. So in, also in that, in Douglas Sheen-Laheen's work, they put together this, this equation for feedback, like how it comes out. So there's like data interpretation and then the label. So there's some observed data that you have, you know, no matter if you're a leader or just if you're delivering feedback. you observe something you hear things from people you get a 360 review something like that and So that's your observed data Then you interpret it to you know, what feedback you're going to deliver and then typically there is a label placed on it Like you have been communicating poorly right You are a bit aggressive You showed up in that meeting just with low energy. You haven't been delivering results in meetings, leading them succinctly. It's like, okay, so what does that actually mean? That I'm a poor communicator, that I'm aggressive? What did you actually observe there? And this is why I like to tell this from the seat of the observer from the seat of the receiver, because when people understand how to receive feedback through empathy, they learn how to deliver it, because it's like when you understand how people take things in, you can deliver it in a way that helps people take things in. Now, as a feedback receiver, It's actually our responsibility to get to the data behind the label, because we can't expect that everyone is self-aware and trained and comfortable delivering feedback. I'd say the majority of the time, people are extremely uncomfortable and, you know, and reluctant and dread the days when they have to give feedback. And, you know, that's something that, you know, we're really trying to unravel here with coaching and our workshops and things like that, because creating a feedback culture is, you know, grounds for innovation and, you know, really just a beautiful safe space if you can set it up correctly. But let me regress back to the role of the receiver. So it's our job when we're receiving feedback to be able to uncover that label. Like, okay, I hear you that I've been coming across a little aggressive in your eyes and that's kind of what you're seeing. Now, what specifically did you observe that that appeared to be aggressive. Like what specific behavior or instance was there? Did that come across for you? And what do you think that I could have done differently in that moment? It's like helping the giver get back to the data that they interpreted to produce that label. Because in that data is the place where you can move forward successfully. What is the actual behavior that you can change? What are the alternative behaviors that he or she is suggesting? What does the research point to? What can I do to become more aware in that moment? It's like getting to the data is our jobs as the receivers of feedback. and to manage those triggers. Because when we're triggered, we can't be thinking about like, okay, let me get to the data behind this statement. We're like, screw you. You know? So, so that's why I always communicate it like that in receiving feedback because then As the giver, what do you need to do then? Deliver the data. Deliver the observations and a recommended path forward. Or even ask them, what do they think is a great path forward? So, we're responsible as receivers, and as givers, we're also responsible for delivering the observations and something to act specifically on those observations. Leave the labels out of it. They're not doing any good for anyone.

Tony: You know, there's a lot to unpack and I think that one of the things that's coming up for me is that, you know, feedback is just a critical element of communication in relationships, period. And when someone gives you feedback, that's their interpretation of you. And I think that you as the recipient have a responsibility to disseminate and dissect what could be true. Not necessarily say, it's all true, I'm all bad, I'm a poor communicator, but disseminate what could be true. And two things, one is that the leader or the person who's giving the feedback, if you have built a relationship with this individual to the point where you know things could be going on with them when you're giving certain feedback, that's built over time. So that's a relationship of trust that is established over time where you may know Why? Whatever the feedback might be. And the other part of it is as the recipient, I think that we all have a responsibility to acknowledge what parts of it is true and why it could be true because of your own situation at home or in life. You know, a lot of times people who have the mantra, they don't bring home problems to work. And although you may not intentionally do that, subconsciously you could be because we're human. So I'll give an example. There was a few times where, for those that haven't heard, we record these pretty early in the morning. There's a few times where we've had guests, I can think of one for sure, and after we recorded, the guest said, Tony, you look really sleepy. Her feedback was like that. I looked really tired during the recording and I could have been like who are you to? Tell me that right, but the reality is we just had a baby and we have a Toddler already. So yes, I actually was very tired And I had to I had to acknowledge that in my own like feedback loop and say She's right and I need to probably wake up earlier. So then I'm awake and Or I need to do something different so that guests don't notice that, right? Maybe I need to drink more coffee or stand up or something like that. But anyway, I say that to say that's my responsibility as a recipient, as a present recipient of the feedback to find the root cause that could make that statement true and not take it personal. I think that's a part of it too. I think about the book, The Four Agreements. And one of the four agreements is to not take everything personally. And that's one of the hardest things for people to do naturally because we're human. What are you as another human to tell me this this or that? And if you can just learn to boil the feedback down to the best parts of it and receive it, eat it, inherit it, and just leave it as what it is and not make it something bigger. Like I didn't go tell my wife, can you believe that this woman on this podcast is a guest, told me. But we do that so often in life because we just feel like we need to be validated in who we are and stand firm. But the real validation is you just Being that's it just being You just being a human being someone who is not above feedback beautiful.

John: You didn't dwell on it at all It was it's like you acknowledged the truth of the situation Right, you know like yes, we have a newborn. I And didn't make excuses and and you left it for what and that was it like you said it really well with the Observed fact like it's it's just data. This doesn't have to mean that I'm a bad person Right like it means that the observed data that day was her interpretation was that Tony was lacking sleep. That was it so that okay and let me spot what's right about that. So in Doug and Sheila Heen's work, they'd call that right spotting. So can you turn on that lens to just search for what's right rather than letting what's believed to be wrong completely throw you off and completely take you off center. So, you were able to maintain your center and be present and see, you know, okay, what's right about this feedback? Well, the reality of my situation is this. What could I do differently? Okay. And that's it. So you were able to look at that so objectively, and when we're able to do that, we don't become subject to feedback. Because when we dread feedback conversations, we're subject to their impact. Our mood and disposition becomes at the dispense of the feedback conversation, so we want to avoid them at all costs. But if you can train your mind to look at things like that objectively and spot what is right, you'll start to pull for feedback. You'll value those conversations, the authenticity of it. And speaking on authenticity, you brought something really, a really important point to the table as well on allow yourself to be vulnerable sometimes. you know, allow yourself to bring up the authentic situation and you know, what is happening for you and you know, that can't, that doesn't have to be an outpouring of venting. Like there's a difference between venting and being authentic about your experience. And being authentic about your experience creates more of trust it creates more of a human experience in the relationship You know say you were letting her know about what's happening at home with your newborn and everything that deepens the conversation Into oh, yeah. Well, you know, I have a family too and then I understand how things can be like that Here's something that worked that really helped me during that time I was like, oh, wow, you know, maybe I'll try that on. Boom. Like you've developed a more of a relationship because you were vulnerable and authentic about your experience. But when you start venting and complaining about something is not the same. Like if you're not throwing out excuses, it's like I'm being authentic about my experience, not trying to say that. what I did was right or making excuses for what you observed. But you brought up some really great points there about, you know, the authentic human experience, because we're all going through it in our own way.

Tony: Yeah, and I think that that goes back to the responsibility of the person who's giving the feedback or the leader, right? Especially in a workplace because you have to establish the relationship and you have to really set it up for that if the person will allow for it so that when When you give the feedback to say, basically, hey, you know, I noticed that you've kind of, your work isn't, it hasn't been the same lately. There's something going on. They can tell you what's going on and feel comfortable to tell you what's going on because they trust you versus you only having that annual meeting or that biannual, you know, setup where you're like, I noticed this on me. You know December 18th, and I noticed this again on March 21st, and I noticed well you never said anything And you never asked, and you never were curious, and you never wondered. Wonder if something's going on with them personally. And that's a terrible time in an annual review to find out that someone's mom has cancer. You know what I mean? And the other piece I was gonna say, too, to that, is once you are at a place where you can interpret feedback for what it might be, like as in interpreting feedback in a way where you can boil it down to get the gold out of what's being said, and not take it personally, then you'll start seeking feedback often. And then you get to a place where you're picking up on body language and cues and energy to really try to regulate yourself. And I think that's the goal. That's at least what I do, is I don't always get feedback directly, like I want sometimes, because I'm always like, trying to be better, right? Like an athlete's mentality. And, you know, sometimes when you're a high performer, you just don't get feedback, because everybody assumes that, oh, you don't need feedback. And you have to find a way to get it. And one of the ways to get it is to make eye contact, body language, meet with people in person, find a way to really connect. Be aggressive in your approach to make relationship or communication so that they'll tell you, you know, oh, no, it's been me. Sorry, I've been avoiding you. That's on me. I have this going on versus you making an assumption. of whatever it might be. Really seeking the truth out of a relationship versus making some kind of one-sided story that makes you the victim. I think a lot of people do that and that is not feedback. That is you creating a scenario that might not even exist. I just wanted to share that and lift that up as well.

John: And you know there's seeking the truth within ourselves as well. We're all doing the best we can with the situation that we're working with. So do the best that you can today and you know, trust that you can learn. You can improve. You know, you are not a fixed person. Like you are always changing. You're always growing. You are not the same person that you were yesterday and today could be the moment where you decide to take a different approach. It could be the moment where you decide to become more present, where you decide to, you know, seek feedback and, you know, really understand what's right about things. You know, no need to beat yourself up about how things have ever gone in the past. Make the choice on who you want to be today. Yep. We'll see, sir. With that, it feels like an appropriate close to today's episode. And, you know, this is just such an important conversation, important conversations that we need to be having. give yourself grace on the journey you know that'll have ups and downs conversations will go differently and conversations will go well in your perspective and maybe some won't go so well but you'll be learning along the way so give yourself a little bit of grace And thank you guys so much for being listeners. We continue to do this because of you. And if you want to learn more and get to know us a little bit more or even interact or work with us, if you want either of us, both of us to come into your organizations or groups, associations, do not hesitate to reach out. You can reach both of our profiles at the present professional podcast.com and we would love to hear from you. So thank you so much for being listeners and we'll see you next time.