John: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development. To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of the present professional today. We have a special guest with us, Luis Velasquez. He's a successful executive coach based in Silicon Valley and a leadership facilitator at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. A former university professor and research scientist, Luis coaches mid-level to C-suite executives globally to increase their influence and impact. He contributes to Harvard Business Review and Fast Company and is the author of the upcoming book, Ordinary Resilience, Rethinking How Effective Leaders Adapt and Thrive. An extreme endurance athlete, Luis's Cup completed over 100 marathons and ultra marathons, including 100 mile races, a dozen Ironman triathlons, and numerous long-distance cycling events. He is now running his most enduring challenges, fatherhood and living with a brain tumor. His article, Are You Being Emotionally Manipulated at Work, was inspired by his own experiences of emotional manipulation and those of his executive coaching clients. Now, that's a mouthful. You have quite a lot going on, Luis. And here, specifically, that article, Are You Being Emotionally Manipulated at Work, was the thing that caught Tony and I. And as we were doing our research, we said, Why not just reach out to the man himself? We would love to have a deeper conversation about emotional manipulation. And Luis was happy to come on with us. And we are so happy to have you here today. So with that introduction, let's hear a little bit more about your story and how you've gotten to where you're at today.

Luis: Well, thank you so much for inviting me over. I really appreciate it. Gosh, this story. Every time I talk about myself, I get, what is the word? Words don't come easily to me. I have a hard time talking about myself. But let me tell you more or less, you know, where my story started. I was born in Guatemala, Central America, and I came to the United States on a scholarship to study agriculture because I wanted to be a farmer. You know, I want to just be a farmer like my dad and everybody in my family. Somehow I took a chemistry class as a hobby, not as a hobby, but I say, you know, as an elective. And I just loved it. You know, and then all of a sudden I started to, you know, to take more science classes. And I ended up doing a minor in biochemistry. And then I did a bachelor's in plant biotechnology. And then I did a master's and I ended up doing a PhD. And I decided then to become a professor. which I did. I became a professor of fungal genetics at Michigan State University. Wow. Life is very interesting. Sometimes you think that you have it all figured out and you don't. And then or sometimes you think that you have figured it out and life throws that curveball at you. Mine came in the form of a brain tumor. And so when I came back from the brain tumor and the surgery and everything, you know, the doctor told me your heart stopped in a reality. And you know, reality is that you probably won't be back to teaching. I don't know from how long because I have some cognition issues and I don't know if you'll be able to walk straight anymore. And that was that was a that was a hard pill for me to swallow. Long story short, you know, my professional dreams didn't survive. I survived the tumor, but neither my professional dreams nor my marriage survived. So I had to reinvent myself. And during that reinvention, you know, I decided, OK, what what can I do? You know, what can I do? And I realized that The only thing that I could do is just reinvade myself somehow and get better. The first thing that I did is I wanted to get better, might help better. So I started running, you know, I started running. And I remember I called my recovery from the brain tumor in my training. my marathon training, and that's how I call it, my marathon training. And then exactly a year after I had my first brain surgery, I ran the Chicago Marathon. And after that, I didn't stop. Up until now, I have over 100 marathons run, and I have run several Ironman triathlons and many ultra-marathons, some of the 100-mile level. And then I decided that, you know, I figured out what I want to do. And so I started looking at my options. You know, I decided maybe I go into real estate. Maybe I'll do maybe I become a greedy Walmart, you know, or something. And then finally, I decided that I am I was going to, you know, to do some HR and no offense to the people. But if you if you remember, if you probably know, is that when you are out of the work, you usually are a consultant. That's what you put in your file, you know, I'm out of the work, I'm a consultant. And that's what I did. And I started to, you know, to talk HR and trying to figure out how I can, you know, get some work. And it only takes one person to give you an opportunity. And I realized that all the pivotal moments in my life have been literally catalyzed by one person. One person pushed me, one person gave me an opportunity, one person challenged me or some sort. And this person, you know, I just met. He said, you know, why? How can I give you a job? He worked for a consulting company. You don't have the education nor the experience. And I said, but I can learn. You know, you got to you got to believe I can learn. So we were in the middle of the Gulf War at that time, and lots of people were leaving the Middle East because they were being targeted, especially in Saudi Arabia. So he said to me, you know, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that, yeah, we'll give you a job. The bad news is that you have to go to Saudi Arabia. So I did. And I went to Saudi Arabia when everybody was leaving. And that's how I started my HR consulting gig, let's put it that way. And I was sitting in the building in the Middle East. And the company I was consulting with, one of the VPs, the VP of HR came and said to me, Luis, I have to give a presentation tomorrow. Can you give me some tips? Can you help me? And I said, sure. And then a couple of days later, I said, Luis, you know, I have this issue. Can you help me? And I said, absolutely. Let's do that. And then he came back and said, you know, I have two guys, two VPs that you need to talk to them. So the company that I was working for, they realized what I was doing. And he said, oh, you're a coach. And they advertised me as a coach. So I had the opportunity to travel to 22 different countries to coach. And they just throw me in the fire. And when I came back to the States, I decided, wow, I've been doing this. I need to get something, you know, some, some formal education on that. So I went back and I got an MBA in 2013. I decided that I was going to go on my own and I've been there ever since. So that's my story. Long story. Sorry it took so long.

Tony: Wow. No, I don't think you have to apologize at all, because I think John and I both can resonate with reinventing yourself, which is what I kind of heard you say a little bit throughout your story, which is an incredible, inspiring just to hear that, Luis. I have a question. Can you talk about that part, though? Can you talk about the power of reinventing yourself? I mean, I'm sure you have clients that you that you speak with in your coaching practice that you have to go through these similar circumstances. Can you talk about the power behind that and what that can do for you?

Luis: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that the key here is an adage that I live by since I started, you know, my own reinvention is that the world doesn't belong to the people that know the most, but the people that learn the fastest. And a lot of times, you know, we think that we can do things based on what we know, when the reality is that we need to look forward and see what we can do with what we have learned. So that's number one. And the other thing that I think that is important is that a lot of times we undervalue what we have. And the reality is that we already have everything we need to have in order to get started. So the idea that, oh, I'm going to start when I do this, I'm going to start when I have that, I'm going to start when do this, that never comes. So I think that the best time to get started on that reinvention is today. And that is the moment that you say, I'm going to do this, period. And then you move on. That's the key is actually making a decision, making the commitment to get it done. And you don't have to do anything. You don't have to have anything else than what you already have.

John: Wow.

John: that that one-liner it's not about how much you know but how quickly you learn and with that just getting started because there's no better way to learn than by just throwing yourself in the fire Right. So, I mean, what I'm hearing is that your willingness to jump in, like your willingness to reinvent yourself, have those conversations that maybe you may be under qualified or something on paper, but someone gave you the opportunity because of who you are, because of your drive, your willingness to learn. So without that willingness to jump in, then, you know, that opportunity may have just gone by the wayside.

Luis: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that is the key. I think that, you know, a lot of times we have this fear of not getting started. We are afraid of we're afraid of. And the way I see it is that I don't I don't want to be fearless. I just want to fear less. The minute you start doing something, you fear a little less and a little less. And all of a sudden it becomes natural. So, you know, fear is part of being human. You know, I mean, I'm not going to start it until I'm not afraid anymore, because that day will never come. And if I am here and I'm not afraid of something, that means that I'm not pushing myself as much as I need to push myself.

John: It sounded like you listened to what your environment was telling you to that you were going about the HR role. And then it was almost like the, you know, the universe or God or the people around you were telling you that, you know, this is coaching. Right. And it's like you listened to what people were seeking you out for and said, Oh, let's make something of this and jumped right into making that your career. And it seems like you haven't looked back since.

Luis: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what happens to me. You know, I mean, yeah, there is a few months ago, somebody we were talking about our careers and our marriages and whatnot. And and she said to me, oh, you're so lucky. You know, you're so lucky you find what you want and you're so lucky you have the wife that you have. And at the beginning, I said, oh, thank you. You know, but then I really took a little bit of offense because I said, you know, it's not about luck. It's about making it work for myself because I work hard on my marriage and I work hard on the work that I do. You see what I'm saying? So it's not just luck. Now, there is another term that is called serendipity. And serendipity is about, yeah, there is an opportunity and you make it work for yourself. So going back to commitment, you know, I mean, hey, you know, there is an opportunity that I'm committed to get it done. The next step is to actually make it work. And that is not easy. And that's the commitment. And then it comes with persistence. You see what I'm saying? So commitment and persistence are the two keys. You know, you're committed to do something and you're persistent because it's not going to be easy.

John: Mm hmm. It's almost like not even just the quickness to learn, but also the willingness to persist. Right. The resilience.

Luis: Knowing that it's not going to be easy. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think that we as humans, we tend to optimize for comfort. You see what I'm saying? We try to optimize for comfort. And the reality is that life is hard. You know, the minute we accept that, we're going to make more, you know, more progress because we have the ability to choose our pain. Going back to, you know, Tony, you were talking earlier about, you know, the 24 hour fitness and the talk that you were going to do there, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, Working out is hard and it's painful, but not working out is actually painful as well. You know what I mean? You get in pain and you have a life that is miserable. We have the choice of choosing our own pain. The reward is different though. In one you have regret and the other one you have progress. And progress, man, is awesome to have it.

John: Choose your pain. Choose your pain. I think we could do a whole episode on that.

Luis: Which goes back to the manipulation article that we were talking about, you know. Being manipulated is hard, you know, and then when you are feeling manipulated and if you don't know and you don't do anything, it's really hard on ourselves. But if you do something, you're putting yourself out there and it's also hard. But again, the reward is different. You know, in one instance, if you allow yourself to manipulate it, then you're upset, you regret, you wish you did something. It's painful. But if you actually take stand and put your, you know, set your boundaries and address the issue, you know, that is not easy. But the reward is much, much, much more fulfilling. Yeah.

Tony: And you know, Luis, what I'm hearing you say is that a lot of people are avoiding things because they want easy. And in reality, that avoidance is causing even more pain because you're going to make your life harder by what you're choosing not to do or what you're choosing to avoid. So if you want an easier life, then work harder.

Luis: That's right. Yeah, that's right. You know, we were talking the other day and I have this thing in my head and I relieve it and I say it to myself all the time is that having work is the blessing of a poor man. because we have it.

John: And, you know, circling back to what you said about the emotional manipulation piece, right? I mean, we all have work to do, whether we're avoiding it or, you know, or confronting it straight on. But the way that, you know, how, how do people, you know, what I liked about the article was really, giving people a sense of, you know, how to recognize when that's coming up, like how to recognize when you might be, might be being manipulated. Because I think that's the, you know, the nefarious piece of it is, you know, that's the thing about manipulation is it's, you know, quite often goes unnoticed. you know, especially by those that are, you know, extremely tactful with it, that are very, you know, smooth and their ways of, you know, being able to utilize certain things. And I think you really broke that down well in the article. And before we, you know, allow you to kind of introduce that, to the audience i wanted to bring up one concept of with emotional intelligence as well and you know feel that this we've had we've done several episodes where we've brought in emotional intelligence we've introduced that to the audience and you know this conversation and louise's writing like really Open my eyes to what could be the dark side of? emotional intelligence like what you know with great power comes great responsibility type, you know type things with becoming emotional intelligent and you know, how might folks be using that to further themselves like utilizing it with more ego attached to it than to create more harmony. And so this article like really opened my eyes to that. I wasn't even thinking about the potential downsides or dark sides of emotional intelligence until I read this article. Are you being emotionally manipulated at work? So I'd love for you to introduce some of the things that you highlighted with how to recognize when folks might be utilizing some of these strategies.

Luis: Yeah, let me tell you a little bit about how I came up with the idea of this emotional manipulation component of that. And by the way, you know, I think that we all are manipulators at one point or another. You know, I mean, I can see it. You know, sometimes I go into the kitchen and the dishes are still on the sink, you know. So I start putting them away, but I make a lot of noise. So my wife didn't realize what I'm doing. That is emotional manipulation, because what I'm doing is I'm trying to make her feel guilty. So I think that we all have done it at one point or another. You know, the key is when we do it for the purpose of gain while we are diminishing others and intentionally throwing people under the bus. And, you know, with my wife and I, you know, we we do that all the time. But, you know, but the love is much, much, much that we love each other so much that we do this because we love each other. You see what I'm saying? Our work is a little bit more, it's a little different because there are some people whose intentions are literally to step over you so they can go ahead. And that's where it's dangerous. So if you think about, you know, one of the examples that I have that didn't make it in the article and I wanted to put in the article is the difference between Martin Luther King and Adolf Hitler. They both were incredibly very in tune with their emotional intelligence, you know, but both of them use it for completely different reasons. You know, Martin Luther King, I have a dream. And the other the other guy was like, OK, let's kill all the Jews. And they actually use their emotional intelligence to move the masses. So that is one component. The other component that I wrote is in there that if you're emotionally intelligent, you can be because you are an empath and you can read people's emotions. You can also be a victim of manipulation as well. So those are the two different ages that I can see. One is that you as an emotional, intelligent person can use that for nefarious reasons. And two is that if you're emotionally intelligent, you can be the target or emotional manipulation because you are more attuned with feelings and being feeling as an empath. Does that, does that make sense?

John: Yes, definitely.

Luis: So I think that what I wanted to bring in the article is that particular double sword, is that a, that emotional manipulation can be used to manipulate people in things that are not good for them. And two, is that if you are emotionally intelligent, you can be the target for emotional manipulation. So that's point number two. The second component that I wanted to bring to the table is also is like, what does that look like? You know, what does that look like? And feedback that I got from a lot of readers is that when they read the article and they see the different ways I describe emotional manipulation and the buckets, you know, like a strategic emotional displays is one. And these guys through feelings is the other one. And subtle motivations is another one. You know, those three buckets and the how I broke it down is what resonated with people the most. Oh, my gosh. Now I know that I'm being emotionally manipulated. Now I see what is happening at work. So I think that the article is also show people how to detect emotional manipulation. Now, the key here, John and Tony, is that a lot of times we know what is happening. We feel it. You say, oh, my God, you know, not again. I know this is happening, but we don't have the way to describe it or to address it. So that's what I wanted to do with this article. A, for you to describe it, to see what is happening. And the second is, what do you do about it?

John: Mm hmm. Yes. And I noticed that as well, the separate buckets and then the strategies that you can employ to kind of build an emotional manipulation buffer and then also to address when that might be happening in certain scenarios. Some of the three buckets, the one that really stood out to me was the shirking responsibility one. I noticed this a lot in some of my clients with their teams, with folks on project teams, things like that. with kind of blame you know putting the blame on something else like looking to assign blame or responsibility to something even if it's outside of a person it could be extenuating circumstances or forces of nature whatever But it's like, it's the opposite of a culture of accountability is, you know, I see that one coming up a lot in, you know, in my coaching. What are some of the, what are some of the ones, I know you have a lot of things that are bucketed into these things, but what are some of the ones that have stood out for you the most with your client base?

Luis: I think that the shrinkage responsibility is one of those. And I call those, you know, that people have like what I call gravity problems versus situational problems. And gravity problems are things that they cannot control and they put blame on them. You know, it's raining and that's why we didn't do it. You know, that is not it's not a sound excuse for many things, you know, like trying to put the blame on something else. The problem with shrinking responsibility is like, for instance, a team member that says, you guys didn't do the work well. That's why we didn't accomplish this. You know, so it's almost saying, you know, like, I mean, you didn't do enough for me. I'm coaching an individual right now that he said, you know, I want my team to be more accountable. I want my team to be more accountable because they're not accountable. So he's actually putting the responsibility on this team. But the reality is that if people are not accountable, it's not the team, it's his. He's the one that is lacking, you know, the responsibility to keep people accountable. So it's not an issue with the team, but it's his. You see what I'm saying? So that's one. The other one that I have seen, particularly in the medical field, is the idea of guilt tripping. And in the medical field, you know, I have a client who is one of and I put that in the in the article where the chief He came and he said, you know, we need to, you know, we need to make ourselves available for our patients. They need those blah, blah, blah. When this particular group of doctors are already at their capacity, full capacity, they cannot give them more, but they feel the need to because they feel guilty because the doctor, you know, the chief is actually making them feel guilty about that. And I think that those are the two major ones because they are doing it as a group. Hmm. So what happens is that when they make feel they make people feel guilty as a group. And if one goes and goes, you know, it's very hard for the other ones to not to. So you're actually moved along the way with them.

Tony: Hmm. When your experience, what about the times where people who have flagged these type of manipulation behaviors or bullying behaviors, they flagged it, they've told people, they've told HR, they've told their boss or whomever. And then it's almost like they, not retaliation, but it's a response where it's like, oh, you're just being too sensitive. Oh, that's not really manipulation. That's not really happening. You're just making it up. What advice do you have for people who have been victims of even that? Where they've been victim of the manipulation, but then even further, they can't even get the help inside the walls that they're looking for, that they need.

Luis: You know, so yes, I've seen that. And I think that one of the things that has worked for a couple of my clients is to create alliances. And what happens is that if I am going to manipulate you, and if I'm going to bully you, I'm probably going to do this in private because I don't want to come across as a person that is actually doing that. So the best thing that you can actually do is bring people over. So they can see what he's doing and he will be less likely to do that. So let me give an example. You know, I have a long time ago, I had a client who she was being basically emotionally manipulated by his manager. guilt-tripping and say, you need to do this for me, because if you don't do it, this is hard for me. You know, the poor guy, well, not the poor guy, the guy was trying to make her feel so guilty that she will take over more work than she was supposed to. In our conversation, what I said, you know, what you need to do is number one is give yourself some time and say, OK, let me think about it. Let me see how I can deal with that. The second thing that she did is that she brought a couple of people with her. So let's talk about what you want me to do. So now he couldn't. say, you know, you had to do this because he can't do that anymore. So the key here is about when people when it's not about you going and try to report this to HR, but rather is how you confront this in a way that a number one, you put the distance between you and the person. And number two is that other people can see what is happening to your point. If I go and if I say, oh, my God, you know, they want to say you're too sensitive. You know, you're you're you're here. You're there. The one thing that nobody wants to have is nobody wants is a new space. Nobody wants to lose face. So if you are bullying me and I make sure that I have people that are on my side at all times, they are going to be less likely to do that in front of other people. Does that make sense?

Tony: Yeah, it makes perfect sense because it's like reputation matters. So, you know, someone all they have is their name. And this is an opportunity or a tactic for people to fight back when sometimes the rules or what have you is still against them. So that's perfect. That's that's perfect.

Luis: The other thing that I have found, too, is the idea that a lot of times the best way to advocate for ourselves is when others advocate for us. I wrote an article, my first HBR article was the five relationships that you need to have to be successful at work. And one of those is that we all, we have to have a mentor, we have this, but there is one that we really don't, a lot of times we don't take into consideration is the ally, is the partner. Now, this is not a person that I can actually will, you know, that is going to you're working with all the time, you know, but actually this is a person that you and him or her are going to make a contract saying, you know, hey, you know, this is what's happening. Can you help me? You know, I got the idea from I don't know if you remember, you know, the I think that the Obama administration, the women in the Obama administration were upset because, you know, men in the Obama administration were taking credit over there for their for their work. So they come up with a plan and say, you know, when somebody says something and a man tries to hijack, the others are going to go and say, hey, wait a minute, you know, that was Angela's idea. That was her idea. This is, you see what I'm saying? So just to make sure that the idea is not stolen, being owned by somebody that didn't. It's the same concept, but it has to be a literally a contract between you and I, you know, like, listen, you know, if this is happening, can you help me? Yeah. So when that happens, then that person can actually advocate for you. Because again, you know, sometimes we are not in a position to advocate for ourselves. Because if we do that, we are the angry person, you know, the angry black man, the angry Hispanic man, the angry woman. You sound safe.

John: Mm hmm. It's that strength and strength and numbers approach of and also the visibility. Right. And it's like helping people be accountable to their word to because if it's you know, if it's true and aligned with your intention, there shouldn't be a reason why you can't voice that same opinion with all of us here. So kind of putting them on the spot for that. Now, I think that's a, you know, again, that's one great strategy to combat the manipulation. And I was thinking for folks that hadn't seen the article yet, it might be helpful to just take folks through the list of these three categories and some of the things that they might want to, or they, where they can notice these things. So, you know, if we're just going through the article right now for strategic emotional displays, um, I think it might be helpful to just, you know, take the audience through some of these things to look out for. So, You know, you have anger and aggression, guilt tripping that we talked about. Dark clouds. I thought that was an interesting one. Emotional blackmail playing the martyr. And those are the strategic emotional displays. What did you want to highlight from any of those for the audience?

Luis: I think that, and again, you know, if you think about this, you know, when I was writing the article, I was thinking about my relationship with my wife and I realized that, you know, that I do all of these things. So we do all of these things, literally, you know, the key here. And so we know what's happening. You know, what we need to do is to realize that what is the intent behind that strategic emotional display. And if the intent is for me to do something that I am not comfortable doing, or for me to do something that is not in my best interest, then we're talking about manipulation right there. You see what I'm saying? And I think that the key here is that we know what's happening. You know, think about this. You know what is happening, especially if you are emotionally intelligent, you know what is happening there. So the key here is to identify that moment and realize, oh, I see what's happening here and take a pause. And then, OK, so how am I going to respond to that?

John: This brings me to the, one of the solutions at the, you know, at the bottom of the article was trusting your gut. And it sounds like that's what you're saying to tap into here is if something feels off, then likely it is.

Luis: Yeah. And I think that, you know, the other one, the trust in God is also make sure that you buy yourself some time. And the next step in the solutions that I offer is to seek external perspectives. You know, I mean, are there other people that are feeling the same way? Is this a modus operandi of this particular individual? Because if it is, then you know that you're not nuts. You know, there is something happening here. Mm hmm. So the number one key is to identify and to verify that this is actually happening.

John: Mm hmm. And then from that to the observable facts.

Luis: Yeah. And I think that the key here, a lot of times we feel, and it has happened to me, is that we need to respond in the moment. And that is the worst thing that we naturally do, because then we're going to slip in into the emotional manipulation component, because what is happening is that they are playing with your emotions and your feelings, you know? And if you feel, oh, my God, what do I do? The best thing to do at that moment is to cut yourself a break. Let me get back to you at that moment. you know, let me get back to you. I'm not sure yet if I can do this or not. And that little break will allow you to think about how you're going to respond to that.

Tony: Yeah. That piece that you mentioned about embracing mindfulness, you know, having the breaths, taking a moment. You know, one thing that I didn't hear us talk about yet that was in the article was about the boundaries. So when you think about the fact that what work is today in society. I mean, the amount of hours that we spend at work, the specific time that we spend at work. I mean, I'm talking about your best focus days, your best focus time, excuse me, your morning, your afternoon, you're there. How do you actually set the boundaries up when you have these workplace bullies or these workplace manipulators who have this authority over you? Right? They have this authority over you. They manipulate you. You know it. How do you put these boundaries in place that can protect you in a way that allows you to still thrive at your workplace? Because maybe this is where you're going to be for the next 20 years, 15 years, 10 years. And you want to be there. But how do you be there and give your all but still have the proper walls up that doesn't create a toxic work environment from your angle?

Luis: So think about this, you know, a lot of times if you are 10, 15 years in the work in the same position, you need to push yourself somewhere else. Because so now the way in the book, you know, the book that I wrote, you know, I described three stages of resilience. And one of the first stages is survival. Next step is adaptation. And the next step is thriving. You don't want to be in survival mode 100% all the time, because that's what is dangerous for ourselves. You know, I mean, we're in this survival mode and then it's just horrible. So the key here is at the beginning, OK, I'm going to survive this guy, but now how can I adapt? And then we can sometimes, you know, there is a fantastic book by Adam Ryan Holiday. It's called The Obstacle Is The Way. And the idea is that sometimes the manipulator is a way for us to see things from a different perspective so we can adapt. You see what I'm saying? So always say you don't want to solve for the manipulator. You want to solve for higher that works for you, something else that works for you better. So you adapt and then you thrive. It's like, OK, so looking back at my own my own experience, you know, a lot of times, you know, like the way I see it is that I don't want to succeed despite of the bad, but because of the bad thing that happened to me. yeah so you don't so the key here is let's not solve for the manipulator because the manipulator we cannot control he or she will be manipulated all of her life. If we try to solve for that, we're going to be always against the wall. So how can you look at different, different way so you can start solving for your own well-being?

Tony: Wow. You know, real quick, I want to say, you know, I have been in a work environment before where there was a master manipulator on site. And what I noticed that was happening is that the people with the growth mindset all left. you know, they didn't realize what was happening. got out of there, right? Me included. And the people that stayed, what I observed is that they truly had the fixed mindset that they're still there being manipulated. They were there. And I don't know if they either didn't know it, or maybe they had a fear of, you know, what else am I going to do? I don't know where else to go. Or if they just are okay with it. Maybe they have some type of behavior that they've experienced in their past life that this is comfortable for them. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that because I have seen this in real life and it was shocking.

Luis: Yeah. So as you remember, at the beginning, we talk about being committed. So the first thing that you need to do is I'm committed to do this, to change this thing, because this is no good for me. You see what I'm saying? I'm committed to change this particular relationship because this is no good for me. The next step is persistence. You know, knowing that is not going to be easy. You know, like, I mean, that is not going to be easy. Sometimes dealing with manipulators is not easy. But then there is another component that is the optimistic component. This is not going to last forever. So the way I see it is commitment plus persistence times optimism. And the way I see times is because optimism is a multiplier. If you have zero optimism, there is no resilience because now you're just committed and persistent. And that is a recipe for burnout. You see what I'm saying? The key here is being optimistic. This will not last. And the minute you assume that mindset, then we start looking for ways of how we can change the place that we are. So going back to the fixed mindset, you know, or to your point, it's like sometimes people that have a fixed mindset, they don't realize that they have options. You see what I'm saying? They are there because they have no option. And that is, unfortunately, I've seen that very common. I have no options. I don't know what to do. This is the cars that I'm dealt with. And the reality is that we always have an option. Staying in that place is one option. What options do you want to look? And the other one option on the other day is like quit. So those are two extremes. You see what I'm saying? But in between, there are many different options. So I think that the key for us to deal with these manipulators is to understand what options do we have and address those options or take chance on those options and experiment on those options. But again, going back to, you know, at the beginning of the conversation is the idea that that we already have everything that we need to have in order to take the first step. And the first step, if I'm dealing with a manipulator, I'm not going to take this. I don't know how we'll handle that, but I'm not going to take this anymore. When you do that, when you commit to that, then the next step is what options do I have? And then you can start looking at the options.

John: Mm hmm. There's, you bring up this concept that comes up a lot in client engagements is just this black and white thinking. And, you know, anytime, anytime I have a client that says never or always a question, whatever's behind that, that statement, right? That it's either this or that, like you said, it's either stay for 10 years or quit. but really there's so much in between that and and that's again focusing on what's within our control right there's so much that could happen you know outside of our control that's between those but what decisions what choices what actions can we take that are within our control here that can create a boundary that can create more balance in our lives that can you know stand up for ourselves and what we believe in right and you know that's part of the resilience but I wanted to just bring up that notion of black and white thinking because it comes up so much. And, you know, if you're listening and you think you only have one option, that's just not the case. That's absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole spectrum of choices that you can make. And, you know, when it comes to setting boundaries around that and, you know, some of the things that I've that I've read and some of the things that have been working with clients on about boundaries is, you know, also thinking about the, you know, the consequences, the enforcement of boundaries. Because, you know, in some cases, like especially in a, you know, one up, one down relationship with a manager or, you know, even some peers at, you know, at the office or in your work environment, it's like, how do you enforce a boundary in a way that's aligned in a way that's, you know, that's safe? What do you think?

Luis: What I've seen a lot of times is that people feel that they have no options because they don't, they're not committed. And even if they're committed, they don't know what to do. You see what I'm saying? I don't want to take this anymore, but I don't know what to do. I recently wrote an article for a vast company called The Dark Side of the… Actually, it's The Growth Paradox. And The Growth Paradox states that you know what you need to do. You just don't have the motivation or the skills to do it, you know? So how do you move forward from that? I think that number one is making… First of all, the first step is saying, I'm not going to take this anymore now. The other component on this particular article that I wrote is the idea that, all right, so how do you set the boundaries? And sometimes we need to look back and look at what is important to us, what are values, and enforce those values. So in that particular article, I was talking to a particular woman who one of his values was courage. And being courageous comes in the way of saying, no, I'm not going to do that anymore. and literally say it. I'm sorry, I cannot do that anymore. That is being courageous. You see what I'm saying? So she's living her values. That's number one. The other thing that a lot of times is very easy to do is to think about who do you want to be and act like that's the person that you want to be. I want to be a person that sets boundaries. I want to be a person that is free of the constraints of this manipulation. So then you say, no, I'm not going to do that because I am in my way to that future self that I envision for myself.

John: But then, what about what everyone else is going to say? What about the fear of, I enforce this boundary, I put my foot down, and then I'm insubordinate, or I won't get the promotion? What about all the fears that mount against that courage?

Luis: Those are fears. You know what I'm saying? And a lot of those fears just live in our heads. Just like you said, what if, what if, what if, what if? And sometimes the best way to do that is to ask that question. So imagine you need to do this, you need to say, well, what if I don't? What if I can't do it?

John: What will happen? Beautiful.

Luis: And to tell you the truth, John, a lot of times, you know, we don't ask the hard questions or we don't set boundaries because we're afraid of what's going to happen. And sometimes that's what lives in our head. My daughter calls them ants. Annoying negative thoughts. You see what I'm saying? That's an annoying negative thoughts. And the best way to make sure that we don't have those annoying negative thoughts is to literally ask the question, what if I cannot do it?

John: Wow. Bring it into reality for a reality check.

Luis: Yeah. And again, you know, that is the choices that we have. We have a choice to ask the questions. We have the choice to ask the hard questions. We don't have to be, you know, the idea that the manipulation, people manipulate us because they take advantage of our, you know, of our emotions and our feelings. They are not ready a lot of times to answer those hard questions.

John: It's like moving people into their thinking mind and out of what might be just an automatic behavior. Like maybe they've been manipulating people and kind of utilizing these tactics for so long that it's barely conscious.

Luis: Correct. And if you put a boundary for yourself the first time, it will be hard for them to break the boundary the next time around. Back to your questions about, you know, like, what if I don't get the promotion? I know. And I think that that is probably a second conversation that we need to have, because, you know, it's just promotion is not just the manager that should count on or give you the promotion. There is another set of things that we need to do and we need to talk about in order to, you know, to prepare ourselves for promotion.

John: Mm hmm. And you brought up something that I talk about with clients a lot, actually. And it's like, I always say, you know, behaving like who you want to become. And it's, you know, like you said, even about the promotion is it's like, are you, you know, are you behaving at the level at which that next level would require today? Right. And maybe setting boundaries and being firm about the commitment is going to be actually a critical skill set when you're doing that for your team moving forward. So it's like, how can you even frame setting boundaries and standing up for yourself as a critical skill as well?

Luis: So now Tony asked a question, what about the backlash? And I think that a lot of times that is the fear that we all have. You know, and let's let's let's let's let's let's differentiate. You know, there's a backlash. The way I see it, there are three types of mistakes that we that we can make mistakes that we shouldn't be making mistakes that are tolerated and mistakes that are encouraged. The mistakes that are not tolerated are things that that you're cutting corners, that you say that you are doing things that you're not supposed to be doing, but you do anyway. Yeah. Mm hmm. Mistakes that are tolerated are if you make a mistake because you did your best, but the conditions were not allowed for you to be successful. Mistakes that are tolerated is, you know, that you are incredible. You have all the skills, but the process is faulty. The machine is faulty. That's a mistake that you have nothing to do. That's a tolerated. And the mistakes that are encouraged is mistakes that you are making a mistake for the purpose of learning something new that will help you and the organization to move forward. You see what I'm saying? So when you are against a manipulator and not doing something puts you in the category of mistakes or risk assessment, you need to think about, if I don't do this, where does this fit? Does it fit in if I fail is because I am not good enough or I am cutting corners? If I fail is because there is other elements that I don't understand or that I have no control over? Or is this mistake something that is encouraged? And if it's encouraged, absolutely do it. But it's on the other end. No, I cannot do this.

John: Hmm. Interesting. You know, when we think about the, I love these three categories of mistakes and you know, the ones that, you know, saying these mistakes are encouraged, it sounded like, again, coming back to this word of intentions. And, you know, I talk about this a lot with clients as well as, you know, when you are setting that boundary, What could be some intentions that align with yourself, your team, and the organization? If you're thinking about advocating for, say, not moving forward with that project or not taking on these additional responsibilities, You know, what are you actually protecting? What are you actually advocating for that is even beyond just you? It's like really thinking about the intention behind what you're saying, the boundary that you're setting, the foot you're putting down.

Luis: So you brought up a very important point because a lot of times, you know, we, the manipulation, the impact of the manipulation goes beyond me, but it also is for the team. So there's another way to actually protect yourself is to say, well, let me see what my team thinks. Or better yet, let me bring my team in and we can discuss. Hmm.

John: Mm hmm. Back to the allies.

Luis: Manipulating you, your emotional state. He or she won't be able to do that when the team is present, because now we're talking about facts. Now we're talking about timelines. And again, you know, if you think about this, it's very, this is, this is so interesting is that usually manipulators are not ready to have those conversations. So the minute you said, let me bring my team in, or let's see if you can, then it's okay. You know what? I'll do that myself or I'll, you know, let's talk about it later and then just let it slide. But that boundary that you're putting yourself in is to protect yourself and your team. And again, you know, manipulators are not ready to answer all these hard questions.

Tony: You know, what I've noticed is that manipulators don't like two things. One is they don't like other bullies or bigger bullies, and they don't like threats. They don't like threats that oppose their king of the hill status, if you will. There's been times where I've been brought in to coach or work with a group or a team and the person with the most resistance is usually the biggest manipulator. And what they don't want is all the facts laid out in a way where they're gonna be found out by this third party outsider. And so they create this euphoria or this feeling of, you know, we can't tell everybody everything that's going on because we're a family. But in reality, it's really just to benefit you. And there's a reason why a third party has been brought in.

Luis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here is the thing, you know, a lot of times, you know, what, what I have seen is like, in fact, I have someone right now, should I report this to HR? Should I report this? And the question becomes now, should I report this to HR? That is usually not going to solve the problem right away. And to your point at the beginning, you know, oh, yeah, you're soberly sensitive, blah, blah, blah. You know, so basically you go against the world there. And I think that, you know, before you actually do that, what we need to do is to do everything that we can to solve this ourselves for ourselves.

John: Mm hmm. To take personal responsibility for our well-being.

Luis: The other component, the other thing is that if you report to HR, you immediately are in a situation of a relationship that is not salvaged anymore. And that is the worst type of relationship that you want to be in, especially if you're reporting your manager, let's put it that way. You see what I'm saying? Because that puts you in the shuttle list and forget it. That's very hard for you to get out of that situation. So the key here is to protect yourself in a way that you take the high road.

John: Yep. Mm hmm. The high road aligned. And it's it's like then you get into the question of what is the high road? And I think you said it earlier, and it's like taking that action that's aligned with your values, you know, being true and authentic to yourself and standing for that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wonderful.

Tony: I agree. I agree. And I just want to add to that, John, and say that when you're in a position of being manipulated, the best thing you can do is have a self-actualization of who you are and, as Luis said, of who you want to be. And you'll be surprised at how the manipulator will back off of you because they see you. They see that you see yourself. When you don't, when you can't see yourself, they can see that you can't see who you are. Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm. So being grounded beautiful. Well Louise this says, um, you know again, I feel like we could go on for for another a couple hours and start unpacking it, you know half the things that we've been talking about today in more depth, but As we you know as we start coming to a close here, you know, what are what's the one or you know or more? Well, of course call it one to three and

Luis: Concepts or things that you know you want our audience to walk away with from what we've talked about today You know in my book, you know if I could put The entire booking with the one sentence is the following to act differently We need to think differently And to think differently, we need to see differently. And that's the idea behind how we can protect ourselves is to see differently, to see options, to see what we can control, to see ourselves in the future, you know, to see to see us for what we bring to the table, to see us, to see us for what we are and the values that we bring and exercise those values. So that's number one, I think. The other thing that I mentioned is the idea of not to be fearless, but to fear less. And I think that the world is not going to end if you ask a hard question. And I think that we are afraid of the repercussions sometimes. And sometimes those repercussions just are in our heads. Those are ants, annoying negative thoughts.

John: I love that. I'm taking ants. I'm going to use that one.

Luis: So I think that we need to, you know, we need to take a little bit more risks for ourselves because we deserve it. And the last thing that I think that is that is important to note is the idea that we cannot do this alone sometimes, you know, in community. And I think that, you know, the idea that, you know, I have no options, I don't want anyone to tell, you know, I think that there is always people you can tell. And sometimes that's what happens. You know, like if you talk to a loud to somebody, you solve your own problems. That is the entire one of the principles of coaching. You know, I mean, you provide a safe space and people come and they talk themselves out of the problem. You know, so all you need to do is to figure out who can you trust so you can bounce ideas and get some some coaching and some help as to how to deal with that, with the idea that you already have everything to take the first bold step. And the first bold step might say, no, I'm not going to do that. Beautiful. I'm sorry, I can't.

John: That was, I feel like you already answered my follow-up question was going to be, you know, how do people, you know, develop a new lens, which to see through and, you know, and how do you see differently? And I feel like you answered it with that kind of conversation, whether it be a coaching relationship, or another trusted relationship where you can speak aloud something to someone that helps you see yourself and see your thoughts. Absolutely. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Luis. Listeners, we will have links to Luis's new book coming out. We'll have links to his LinkedIn page where you can follow him and his journey as that continues to evolve. And the book is it was June 25th, right?

Luis: June 25th, it will hit the shelves. June 25th to hit the shelves so you can actually you know read the first chapter if you're inclined to do so in one of the links that I that that you have there so

John: beautiful yep that link that link will be in the show notes as well so you'll be able to connect with louise read the first chapter of the book and continue following his journey and learning more and just maybe this will be the content that helps you see differently helps you behave like who you want to become So again, thank you so much for joining us today, Luis, and thank you all for being listeners. We wouldn't be here doing this without you tuning in. So we appreciate you and we'll look for you again the next time with the present professional. Take care of my friends.

Luis: Thank you, Tony. Thank you.