Tony: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

John: To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of the present professional today. We're here to talk about essentialism and to build off of the work of Greg McKeown and his book essentialism. So you will put that in the show notes for you guys to check out and then. For this conversation, we thought that this was something that was very complimentary to a lot of the things that we've been talking about here on The Present Professional and a lot of the things that Tony and I have been living and the way that we've been Building and refining the things that we're doing over the years has simply become more essential as life has become. More complex in ways. As more roles have been added, more responsibilities, it's, you know, learning what to say no to. Is essential because when you say yes to everything you are. by default saying no to a lot as well.

Tony: That that's that's it. Life does get more and more complex. So you're right. And I love that we found this book in a way where we can bring it to the podcast and bring it to the audience that we have so far, because, you know, one thing that the book talks about is that It's a high achieving society. People are more likely to overachieve these days than underachieve or at least attempt to overachieve. And that has become the new norm. I think generation by generation it's probably increasing. And you can see that in our newer priority for mental health and just many different conversations that are bubbling up because of the results of society. And so a book like this, and of course our podcast, which is already talking about these type of topics, It's just the perfect time to double or triple down on it. And I love that the book highlights so many different things. I know we're gonna get into some of the subjects specifically, but I wanna just point out how it talks about the importance of sleep. I just wanna point that out from the jump. Because it said something to me in the little summary about how People who are drunk and people who are sleep deprived have the same characteristics. So for those of you and friends of mine that always say, you know, forget sleep. You might as well take a shot of tequila and go to sleep because you're not going to be productive by just grinding it out too many days in a row. But anyway, let's hop into it, John. Definitely.

John: You know, that's that's too funny. And the I think you said it really well with the way things have been changing generationally as well, because now it's not only where we're putting our attention and saying yes to too many tasks, but it's also now there's a market for your attention. I mean, there's a whole industry built around how to capture your attention. I mean, these are every time you view every time you click, right? People are getting paid. It's like you are the product. So this essentialism, I think, expands now in this generation far beyond just your tasks. But how well are you saying no with your attention? And I think that's one thing I didn't see a lot of in this book. But I think that's something that really pertains to today's age is you have to watch what you're saying yes to with your time your energy and your attention but had to put that in before we just got into into the book but the first topic that we want to bring up is you know avoid avoid drowning and unnecessary work And then, you know, Tony, how do you, you know, how does one determine what work is unnecessary? What work is necessary? How's that process work for you?

Tony: Well, yeah, I'm glad you said, how does it work for me? Because I think that it's for a person that's trying to figure that out. It's subjective. You know, it's about you have to figure that out for yourself because only you can determine what's essential. There have been plenty of times where I'm sure that people would have thought that some of the things I may have put on my agenda or wanted to go after or just do was not essential, but it was essential to me, right? So I think that's a good start right there. Don't let too many outside influences determine what's essential for you because then you could be walking down a pathway that's not built for you. So just keep that in mind. But the book points out four points and I want to kind of walk through those because I think that there are pieces I can reflect on in my own journey. But the first is do less but do it better. I think that with that principle, I like that one and it resonates because I remember I was in this program, a leadership program about five years ago and there was this guy, he literally is probably me today, but he was getting a doctorate and he had a job and he had a family and he had like four kids and he was in this program and I'm like, how are you doing all this? And he just looked at me and he simply said, when I do things, because I have so many things I'm doing, when I do them, I just try to do them really, really well. Like basically with excellence. And I was just like, interesting, right? Like it seems like such a, that was such a simple thing he said. But over time, I started to understand what he meant by that. And it's kind of what this book saying, by do less, but do it better. He probably only was doing a few things at a high level, but it seemed like a lot. to me or to the outside world, but he was just giving his all to the things that he did participate in. So I think that's a good principle to start with, which is do less but do it better. Anything resonate for you with that, John?

John: yeah that's when you spread yourself too thin it's you know it's hard to develop any expertise or really just make significant headway on especially big projects especially like some of the things that are you know, part of your soul's calling, your purpose. Those kind of projects, that's going to take time, attention, grit, perseverance, resilience, creativity, and all of those things. How are you going to do them when you're only giving a small piece of the pie? of your daily energy to that task. So I think in order to do more, you have to do less. And I think that you can still do a lot in one vertical, in that one piece of the pie. Like he mentioned, he's focusing on the things that matter the most to him at the moment. that is the most necessary to do and doing it well. So it's still putting a lot of energy into this one topic, this one vertical, but at the same time. Imagine what that energy would look like if it was split between 10 different work streams, right? And then you only have one 10th of the progress that you're making towards, you know, that program or his PhD or his family. It's like, you know, what's so what's going to give? And it's those things that are not essential, the unnecessary work. And so we think, you know, the list, if you're sitting there, if you're sitting there as a listener thinking, you know, okay, you know, what am I doing? That's not necessary. You know, what am I drowning in right now? That's not necessary work. You know, I would, I would say, you know, listen to, listen to your gut and your heart over your mind. Because, you know, the mind can be, you know, the first thing that comes up. Taking on tasks, taking on, you know, people's people's requests, things like that. And, and in your mind, you know, oh, I can, I can do that. But then like when you start or when you say that, how does it feel deeper down? And how does that feel in your gut? Like, is this something that is really going to move the needle for me? Is this something that's going to make a difference for the organization? Or is this something that I can check the box off quick for a quick dopamine hit that day? And that goes back to the mind. Right? So notice it's a lot of times it's it's referred to as the boulder and the pebbles. And we get a lot of pleasure daily between taking all these pebbles and scooping them, scooping them over the wall. All right, great. But the boulder, you have to chip away at that thing and throw it over the wall. Chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, throw it. That's not as satisfying as being as a whole as a complete task. that day, those little pebbles, but then the boulder still there, that large accomplishment, the thing that's necessary to drive your life and career forward. So I always look at it with clients through that lens of like, you know, what are, what are these pebbles that are taking up your time and energy that are not giving you the space to chip away at the boulder that is the accomplishment that's going to make your day, make your week, make your year. I like that.

Tony: Let's bring some attention back to that. That's great. That's the first time I've heard that analogy of the pebbles and the boulder, and I love it. I'm definitely going to take that one with me. It makes a lot of sense. I feel like I live like that anyway, so it's like perfect to put it in a metaphor like that. And again, you know, we're talking about with essentialism, the book, avoiding unnecessary work, and I do think a part of that too that's not mentioned is start walking as well. Like if you're trying to figure out which direction to go or what's left, what needs to be dropped, Start walking, you'll find out. You'll find out quickly if you start running. But start walking. Another piece it says is reject the notion that we should accomplish everything and choose instead specific directions in which you can excel. I think John just mentioned that, but you know, when it comes to thinking that you have to do everything because we live in a high-achievement society, especially with social media. Just understand that there's so much going on in the world and you can just choose to be an expert or a leader or a worker in one particular area or maybe a few particular areas and not trying to do every single thing. And the beauty of that to me is that When you accept that you don't have to do everything, now you can be a better relationship builder. Because when you aren't the one doing everything, then you have to learn the power of delegation as well as building bridges and partnerships and friendships that'll allow you to share the workload or share the project in a way that pushes everyone forward. And that is a part of essentialism because If you, let's say a project takes five people, everybody's bringing 20%. If you just focus on your 20% and you trust that the other people are gonna bring the other 80, you will be amazed at how much further you go with a group or with another person doing half and half, 50-50. But if you think you always have to do 100%, you will find yourself burned out, or you will find yourself not moving as far as you want to move because you think you have to accomplish everything, like the book says. So choose a direction, be an expert at your part, and just go for it. And the last piece of mention that it mentions I want to point out is that you should constantly question yourself and update your plans accordingly. The book talks about being an editor to your life. So, you know, decide what's worth doing, decide what's letting go, and then, you know, be okay with reinvesting your time and energy in the right productive areas.

John: Now, if you're spending a lot of time, doing unnecessary work. You're sitting there, you're realizing, man, there are so many pebbles, so many tasks, like so many directions I'm being pulled in. Like this overwhelm, this burnout, like being pulled in so many different directions that you're starting to lose touch with the things that you value. And, you know, really this overwhelm and the way that it says it in the book as well, it leads to losing the ability to make choices for yourself. And when we're unable to make choices for ourselves, what do you think we end up doing? Unnecessary work. Because when someone else is making the choice for me, likely they're going to be delegating the unnecessary work.

Tony: Say that again. I don't think they caught that.

John: Right? When someone else is making choices for you, you're likely doing the unnecessary work. But you're able to question what's going on if you're able to step back from this overwhelm, slow down and think about what's essential. Now, this this threshold. Like this walking off this cliff of where overwhelm leads to losing this ability to make choices for ourselves. It's a, it almost is only recognized in hindsight to where you look back and say, wow, I didn't, I don't even know what I was doing for the past month. You know, I don't even know what progress I made for the past couple months, a year, whatever timeframe, but you see it in hindsight and you think, wow, this happened. I was given this directive, but then I still had my base job. And then my kids started going to school and then, and I don't even, I don't even know what happened. It's like, I was just operating on autopilot. And I think this ties back to what Tony was saying about being the editor of your life. It's like being an editor, it takes time. It's a slow process to review what's happening. It takes that time to allow yourself to reflect. And that's why allowing this time to reflect is so important because Otherwise you operate on autopilot for so long and then again you realize it in hindsight. But then when you have these periods built in to review, to reflect, to edit, to think about the things that you've been doing, to look back at the daily tasks on your calendar and say, you know, what did I do last week that Didn't need to happen, you know, what are some of the pebbles that I was that I was taking out That we're just making me feel good in the moment, but are not essential as when you have that built into your schedule regularly, you don't allow yourself to be on autopilot for long periods of time because you're thinking that we're going to have the profound awareness to always be able to make the choice in the moment is a goal. And if we have that built into our schedule, we can allow ourselves to ebb and flow. Maybe if you're going into autopilot for a bit, maybe it's just a day, maybe it's just a week, but you have that built into your schedule to look back and say, how am I operating?

Tony: that's like spot on because, you know, that's why at one point, I don't do it as often. I'm actually kind of challenging myself to get back to it a bit, but I used to do a lot more journaling of my daily tasks. I mean, the things I did, not really tasks, let me not say tasks, because tasks is, That can become your life because you're just worried about checking off the box, scratching off the list, like the dopamine hiss that you mentioned earlier. To me, it's really more about what you've done, what did you do, because what you do determines who you become or who you are. The task or one thing, I checked off this list, but who did you talk to today? Where did you go today? Did you discover anything new today? Because those are the things that are gonna make you the person that you are, not the task. The task will make you a machine if you're not careful. So I just love that principle. And it says in here on this topic that when you think about the efforts that you have to surrender or give up, it says that you either completely give them up, or they become overly active, or you can accept every opportunity that's presented to you. At first, an activity might indicate that you have not developed or learned helplessness. However, people that are actually exercising their power to choose the opportunity which is best for them, they simply do everything. I just think it's interesting how you can get frozen by not making a decision if you become overwhelmed by a task. And I see that happen more than I see people failing. Let me say that again. I see more people frozen to move to make a choice than I see people failing. I see less people failing because they don't want to make a decision. And failure is a part of the journey. So just want to throw that out there too when it comes to centralism. Don't be afraid to just take that step.

John: The power of choice. That's how we manipulate the universe. That's how we move things and build things here. It's decision after decision. And you're right if you're not making decisions. Someone else is making them for you.

Tony: You said it better than me. You'll get the the non-essential task, right? Or what other people call busy work, right?

John: Yeah. Now, I think this, when we're talking about overwhelm and this pause and reflect periods, during this pause and reflect period, zoom out to see the bigger picture. We're thinking of all this, the necessary work, making choices, but then determining what work is necessary, avoiding overwhelm, having this time to pause and reflect. It all has to be aligned with a bigger picture, aligned with a vision for yourself, for your career, for your life, because that can be your North Star. So when you take that pause, zoom out to see the bigger picture, And you're thinking, you know, what tasks are essential and what am I doing that's unnecessary? That has to be relative to something. So relative to your vision, relative to your company's vision, relative to a long term goal. Because I'm thinking. Even the word necessary. Means like necessary for something. It means that. What is this adding up to? What is the boulder that you're chipping away at? Why does that matter to you? So being able to zoom out and have a view of your life, a view of your year, a view of your goal, this image, this story that you want to create. Are your behaviors and your actions aligning with that? So I think it's critical to spend time on what your long term vision is. What are the things that create that for you? Because those can be your goalposts along the way to check in, determine what's necessary, and keep moving forward.

Tony: I love that, the power of Zoom. And now we're not talking about the video company, I'm talking about Zooming out. But let me piggyback off that and say, it's just as important after you Zoom out like that, to zoom all the way in, like go 200% and look at exactly what you're doing. Like with me doing a lot of tasks often, I will just take a moment and I'll say, how am I feeling in this minute, this moment, this second? What am I doing that is, like I mentioned earlier with the gentleman that I was referring to, what am I doing with excellence right now? When you zoom in as well, then that is also essentialism because you are making sure that what you do, what you say, how you show up is with excellence. You're on point. You're the best version of yourself. You're trying to do it the best way you can. You're present, back to our present professional piece here, you're presently actively attempting to do something the best you possibly can, right? And then what John mentioned, when you zoom out like that, you're then able to make sure that you're aligned and tracking toward the GPS that you set for yourself. So it's important to do both even simultaneously because then you can kind of back out and go to like your normal or your neutral and then just be you knowing that you're showing over excellence and you're trekking along where you need to be. Even if that trekking along is actually you chipping away at the boulder because You won't always feel the progress. You really won't. Sometimes it takes a year or two, maybe even three, for that GPS to get to the end destination. It's easier to do that when you are also zoomed in and making sure that you every day are doing it right. Because a day wasted is not going to get you where you want to get to. But a wasted day does not mean that you had to throw something over the wall. You may have just thrown, like he said, a piece of that boulder.

John: Exactly, I love that the zoom out zoom in. It reminds me of a previous episode. I believe it was. I believe it was the leadership on the line episode of. The ability to go from the balcony to the dance floor. Mm hmm, like you gotta be able to see to see the whole party. I see what's going on and then step down on the dance floor to take part. Right? So zooming out to see the bigger picture, zooming in to get on the floor now. Getting on the floor talking about like moving into that. I think it's a perfect transition to talk about. You know, we're not all here like just to accomplish big tasks and to, you know, like just to move things forward and contribute to the world on a grand scale like you're here to dance to play. To get creative and you know that's. We're not here to eliminate fun, but fun is essential. Play creativity and even even rest. Like it's all essential to be able to be your best when you are zooming into your contribution. So make sure that when you zoom out and you see that bigger picture, you know that you're also seeing fun, leisure, connection, play, community, rest. Like there are so many things that you want your work to contribute to. So it's that whole, you know, not living to work, but working to live. And then you really hit the sweet spot when your work is aligned with how you want to live.

Tony: agree with everything you just said and so lately I've been in these settings where the topic has came up like what do you feel in your body right now right like that the simple question and when you think about that question and you think about what you feel in your body Sometimes you can feel unnerved, sometimes you can feel like you want to hide, sometimes you can feel, you know, just not yourself, right? But you know how much of a comfortable human being it takes to be the person who is dancing? at the wedding or dancing at a party or dancing at the club. Like when you're just dancing, you're just like, oh, this is my song, and you're just like dancing without caring about what anybody thinks. That right there is goals, right? Because to dance and not care what anybody, yeah, like to not care what anybody thinks and to feel like, you know, even if you can't dance, you're just like, oh, I just, you know, I'm in it. That's where you want to be. That's where I want to be. I remember there was a time where I would go to weddings and I just would be like… sitting down and just like at the table, just kind of, just like, you know, just chilling, just relaxing. But I wouldn't dance, you know, and I still like barely dance at weddings, but you know, I'm willing to dance now. But it's a different, it's different now. I'm willing to dance now. There was a time where I'm like, I don't want to dance. And it was because I really wasn't, I had a lot on my mind. I was thinking about where I wanted to be in life. I'm thinking about what's not working. I'm like at a function or at a social event and I'm not actually present. And so that is a lot, that happens to so many of us, right? You go to things or your social things and you're not really present because of other things in your life going on and just thinking about. But to John's point about play, the reason why I brought up this topic specifically about dancing and all that so heavily is because like the pebble in the rock in the chipping away at the boulder part of chipping away at the boulder of being a person who is vibing and dancing at the party is being a person who can start to play again. When you start to incorporate play into your daily life or into your weekly life, It builds that muscle up to where you can start to not take yourself so serious. Because not taking yourself so serious is extremely important. I always laugh to myself and remember that when I'm in like business or professional settings that we were all once kids. So when I see someone doing something that's kind of ridiculous, I ask myself, like, I wonder if they were like that as a kid, right? Because now I see you as a big kid doing this crazy thing, like you're saying this stuff that's just, you know, unnecessary or whatever this case is, and I remember, and I just kind of laugh to myself and say, we're all just big kids in here. And then it just kind of allows me to level set and just sit into my body again, and just try to be the version of me that was once a toddler to now, and just remember that I'm still one human on this trajectory and this path. And the more I sit into that, I think the more that I make other people comfortable because I'm comfortable. It's like when the person's dancing, like you ever been to a social gathering and the first person jumps up to dance? Doesn't everybody usually surround that person? It's like, I'm going where they are, I'm going to dance, right? And so it's the same thing about just being comfortable in your body, not taking yourself so serious, the play factor. The more you can be like that, the more that the human beings around you will feel that energy and just attract you and just want to be around you, man.

John: In yoga teacher training, one of my teachers, I can't remember the weekend or the teacher that was, but just said something right along the lines that really resonated with me. And it was, you know, take the practice seriously, but not yourself, right? And, you know, I think that applies to our work, our contribution, the Boulder, your project. Like, yeah, take that serious, zoom in, give it your all, you know, turn on your analytical mind. But then, you know, don't let what that means about you influence how you feel. So. No need to take yourself seriously in that. But take your work, your contribution seriously. You know, you're there's a place. There's a place to be professional. There's a place to say no to be stern, to be courageous and confident with, you know, indecisive in the way that you want to move forward. Yet when you start to make that daily success or the success of the project mean something about who you are and your worth? You start taking yourself too seriously, and then you start losing that fun, the fun, the play, the reason, the dance that we're all here in this world to experience. So don't lose that by letting your work or letting really anything external take away from the creep, the beautiful creature that you all are.

Tony: Yeah, and you know, just a real quick say that when you take yourself too serious, you open yourself up for more pain and more hurt, which can lead to different roads that people tend to go down quite a bit in today's society. I've mentioned mental health earlier, and it reminds me of like watching my son learn to walk. You know how many times that dude fell down, right? Never once did that make him feel like he can't walk or he'll never be able to walk. He just got up and kept trying. And when, cause he didn't take himself so serious. And he's like, I have to make the perfect step every time I attempt to walk. It's like, I'm just trying to walk man. And then now he went from walking to running and you know just that's a part of it. That's a part of essentialism is we're just all on this journey trying to be the best version of ourselves. So just be okay with your failure and your attempts and just understand that Okay.

John: Now, I mean, really to wrap this all up, it's, you know, in summary, we're talking about, you know, removing these things that slow you down, removing unnecessary work, habits that slow you down. things that you're committing to that might slow you down. So, you know, saying no is an important skill. And I say, I call it skill because, you know, I think we're predisposed to say yes. We are social creatures that evolutionarily need to fit in for survival. So saying yes and, you know, being in agreeing with everything that comes your way is something that is natural. That's why I say saying no and setting boundaries is a skill, because a skill is something practiced and learned behavior that is above and beyond what naturally occurs for us. And while saying yes occurs naturally, saying no is something you have to develop. It might get messy. It might be messy at first. It might bring up some feelings, some emotions. But know that when you're able to say no, when you're able to set and enforce boundaries, you will create freedom. your life the freedom for you to say yes to the things that are Necessary in the way that you want to move forward and that's going to involve you Withdrawing from some things, you know, maybe there are some projects that you've been committed to that are not for you and maybe you're Pushing yourself down the road because you feel like I have to remain steadfast. I need, you know, grit like this is just a challenge. I'm just moving through it. Well, maybe not. Maybe you're beating a dead horse. Maybe you're, you know, going down the path that isn't for you. So I think it goes right back to that moment of zooming out. Zoom out and really check in with yourself. You know, am I just pushing forward out of ego because of what withdrawing from this project or this role or because of what it might mean about me? And, you know, back to that taking ourselves so seriously in our stories. And if you're just doing that because of what it might mean about you, then that's not the work for you. That's not the project for you. Withdraw from that. Say no to things, set boundaries so you can say yes to the path that is right for you, that you'll feel in your body.

Tony: Can't, I can't agree more, man. Great, great statement. And I have nothing to add, man. It's great.

John: What a way to, to, uh, to add my friends. Thank you guys so much for being listeners. You know, it's wonderful to be with, with such an amazing community of folks that are committed to being more present in their lives, being more central and, you know, working on the things that matter. Right. And by working on the things that matter, it's also taking time to play and enjoy the dance. So thank you for being a part of the community. We look forward to seeing you guys interacting with you guys. So don't hesitate to reach out. Don't hesitate to connect with us. We'd love to hear from you again. Thank you for being a part of the community. We'll see you next time.