John: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

John: To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today, we have a special guest with us, Rose Williams. And we're here to talk to you about well-being in the university. And both undergrad, graduate, and she is really the perfect person to come on and talk about where that's been in that journey and where it's going. Because she brings a background in public health to her understanding of higher education and that student life landscape. So right now, she serves as the Associate Director for Student Wellness at Elon University. In her role, she works with her team to champion a campus culture of holistic well-being. Now, a native North Carolinian, she attended state institutions for her undergraduate and graduate degrees, and she's currently a doctoral student at the University of Southern California Rossier School of Education. Her research interests include women's leadership, employee well-being, and family dynamics, all of which really piggyback on her work so well with the university, and then expanding that work into different scopes of people that can benefit from her insights. So with that being said, anything that I missed there, Rose, that you want to let the listeners know about yourself. Well, one thing I also want to point out is, you know, noted University of Southern California and the connection to Tony and his doctoral program as well. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that connection and introduce yourself a little bit more if you'd like.

Rosa: Yes, absolutely. First and foremost, thank you for the invitation. Thank you for having me on today for The Present Professional. I love the intersection of the personal and professional development. I'm an educator at heart and staff development, team building, organizational culture has always been a passion, even when I didn't know, I can connect it backwards. Which brings me to meeting Tony through University of Southern California Organizational Change and Leadership Program. We're both part of that OCL in different cohorts. I'm cohort 22, Tony's cohort 23, and we had the pleasure of meeting in San Diego in April for the ASUGSG Summit, Arizona State University and Global Silicon Valley. Life-changing experience. Not only was it the largest and global conference I've ever been to, but being able to meet my cohort members and classmates in person, because we are 100% online. So the Zoom atmosphere, I was able to reach out and touch and make connection. I think it's really powerful just the fact that connecting with Sony, here I am today. So again, we are learning some dynamic principles and strategies to apply in our personal, professional, and entrepreneurial lives. And so even you all celebrating your 50th episode, powerful. So I know he's already transformed from where he started to applying some of those principles from our program. So yes, well-being, I'm passionate about it. And like I was able to mention to you, John, before we got on, I've had the privilege of cultivating wellness for the whole, the entire age spectrum. From pre-k to gray really from preconception to older adults i've been able to work in some capacity of wellness and well-being and it is a privilege to be able to hold space for such intimate and Such vulnerability of dealing with whether it's be physical Emotional mental financial career just all the dimensions of wellness that people go through. It's personal But one of the things that I think we can't talk about well-being without discussing identity. And so that leadership piece that I'm able to pursue through the doctoral program, I think well-being and leadership go so hand in hand because we have to first lead ourselves in that well-being journey. And for me, it's been a roller coaster in my personal wellness journey of ups, downs, and reality checks, and humility, and grace. So it's a real journey. And like I say, making it through a 24-hour period is a big deal. And so the fact that we get to get up again and do this thing called life and move through time and space, it's not to be taken lightly, that we can do it in our right minds and with health and strength.

Tony: Powerful and well said and I love how you brought in the the piece about us getting a chance to meet at the summit which connected us to be here today. It just shows such a powerful global ecosystem of online blending with real life. We kind of talked about that in a prior episode and here it is. in fruition. Now, I have a question for you, Rose, with your experience in wellness and well-being. So how do you define wellness and well-being? I mean, it's a term that we hear a lot. It's like a buzzword today. But, you know, how do you define it just personally from your experience and perspective, whether it's your personal experience or professional experience?

Rosa: I love that question, Tony, and the fact that I can now answer it without being textbooky, but to really think about my lived experience and my journey. The way I define wellness now is real simple, and then you can kind of unpack it like an accordion. But do I have the ability to thrive and feel safe? That's really the angle or grounding that I come from, because it speaks to so much. First, I'm not just surviving. I am able to Be well And it's not a privilege. It's a right, you know, it's not this luxurious Spy experience this unattainable It's a base level of I can be well and then we can add on overflow and things from there But can I thrive? And can I be safe so that psychological safety? Can I trust you with me? Do I feel handled? Well in my family life in my work life, in my ministry life, how are people handling me? And how am I handling others? Because it is reciprocal, that community aspect of well-being. And so much emphasis now and buzzwords is placed on self-care and resilience. And I think we missed the mark, because at the root, it's community. That I need someone else, at least one other person, to help be a mirror, to help be a support, to help sharpen that not codependency in an unhealthy way, but community in the sense that I can't do life without someone else to do it with. We saw that during the pandemic and COVID, the loneliness epidemic. It wasn't new. It was just exposed. So we have to have each other. And to me, holistic well-being, we can't talk about it without talking about, can I thrive? Can I be safe? And what is the relational aspect? So self-care is a little, in a way, some of that is a myth. It's a component, but we place too much emphasis On the self and the individual because we can't be well alone

John: we cannot be well alone. I love what you were saying about being the mirror. As a certified health coach yourself and have been through and understanding of the coaching process, a lot of times when I'm explaining that to clients, starting an engagement and saying that, listen, I'm really here as a mirror to your thoughts, your perspectives, so you can take a look at yourself. So, I mean, from a coaching perspective and, you know, even reaching out for those well-being resources in a way, how do you recommend that, you know, our listeners pursue, you know, one of those mirrored relationships or maybe what was your experience with one of them?

Rosa: You all are question central. In coaching, we know there's nothing greater than the power of a well-asked and well-placed question. So when I think of that, John, I think of start with one. So there's so many relationships to choose from, like a menu. That could be a counseling relationship, a mentoring or sponsor relationship. It could be a friendship. It could be a health coach. It could be a spiritual advisor or pastor. So it's really endless, and you don't have to try to have all of them, but just starting with one, because you may not need them all at one time. That's overwhelming. You may need more at a different season of life. So for example, when I think of a time when I was thriving, because I will not say that I'm really where I want to be with that definition I gave, but I'm able to see the gaps. And I'm giving myself grace because I know I'm going through a lot of change and transition right now between family life and aging parents, which is a whole other subject and topic that we don't talk about, the caregiving piece. Between being a student while working full time, aging myself, and what that looks like, especially as a woman in that intersection. Um as we approach menopause, which is something that is kind of taboo and not talked about so when I think about A time when I was thriving and at my best I had supports in place Holistically wraparound. I was using my eap program for counseling I had regular scheduled appointments not just oh when I felt like I needed it or there was a crisis but maintaining that that therapeutic relationship I had a nutrition regimen that I was consistent with and committed to, not going on emotions. So I was eating the best foods that would help my mind-body connection. I was in a stronger place, I feel, with my faith. We're not always the best judges, because sometimes when we do feel we're the farthest in our faith, that's when we're the strongest. Strength and weakness. So I had different supports in place, more wraparound. And I think we shouldn't have to feel like we have to That hustle mentality can also get us in trouble of, oh, I got to just deal with this myself and just handle it and pull myself up by the bootstraps kind of mentality. I think we suffer when we don't have to, and I've definitely been guilty of that. The physical health piece, can't leave that out, of knowing our numbers, our blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol, having our regular physical. Last year, I had a colonoscopy done, and I felt liberated. because for 10 years, I mean, what assurance to be able to say, okay, I've had that done and I don't have to have it done again for 10 years. So taking the investment, letting go of the fear and moving towards some of those relationships that are difficult, but once we do it, we have that muscle memory. Okay, so now I've done this colonoscopy once, I can do it again. I've gone to the dentist on a regular basis, so now I've built up that strength and I don't have to have fear. um, i've i've sat on the counselor's couch and Shared and allowed them to hold space and not overburden my friends and family. Yes i'm raising my hand that I have been that person who They probably won't tell me but honey. I can't hear about your problems another time with your workplace I need you to go to counseling because we try to get things out of the wrong places and where it's not Like our friends, yes, they can listen to us, but they can only help us to a point because they have their own problems. So really realizing the purpose of a thing. Miles Monroe said, where the purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable. So we don't even realize it, but we're abusing our family and we're abusing our friends. That's not what they're for. We've overextended. So we've got to let the professionals be the professional. And it's okay. It it is actually Not off or weird. It is the resource and what it's designed for So I would just say tapping into those professional resources more And not feeling like it's a stigma or something wrong, but normalizing it and level setting like yeah, honey. I have my um counseling conversation a day, in the car, during my lunch break, you know, just normalizing it in the conversation that this is a regular part of my routine and my regimen.

John: I love that. Talking about things that can bring up and make people uncomfortable, but at the same time are super essential. Getting your colonoscopy is something that needs to be talked about, that needs to be not put off.

Rosa: Especially as black and brown people. That's a whole different intersection. Yeah.

Tony: Um, that's that's super powerful. Go ahead. John.

Rosa: Wow And we can feel good about it. Like You know, even if there's something there You can feel empowered and that strength of facing it and pulling the support in that's why we have to have that support And not deal with it by ourselves, but there's something in being able to face it that is so strengthening as opposed to Shrinking away and hiding and being fearful and these diagnoses and we don't even know and then before you know What a family members passed because they haven't gone and it it's just such a negative cycle Versus let's just face it and talk about it the elephant in the room. I

John: And there was one thing that I loved that you talked about is just kind of getting into it and then starting to build some consistency with it into your life. And to me, it comes up as this concept of inertia. You know, it's it's way it's more difficult to, you know, to push a car from start. But if it's already rolling and to give it a little bit more speed is is not as bad.

Rosa: Yeah, the momentum.

John: Exactly. There's so much, especially with things that do not have deadlines, like our health, our well-being, some of these things that you can put off forever if you want. You don't have to ever seek counseling. You don't ever have to hire a coach. You don't ever have to get a colonoscopy if you don't want to.

Rosa: Oh, John, you're going to send me on. The fact that you said that out loud, That's exactly what's happening in the mind. We go to our graves and haven't done some of these things, but we're worth it. One of my mentors, that was one of the biggest seeds that got planted is that I'm worth it. And I can think about doing a premarital or dating 101 class decades ago. I mean, I just knew I was going to be married before now. Again, that's a whole nother podcast. We could do a series. I remember a question on there on this kind of self-reflection questions. How long can you go with an item being broken in your house? It was something like that. I'm paraphrasing. At the time, I was like, and I didn't want to deal with it because it was calling me out on some things. On some things I had rigged up and jacked up and just, okay, it's okay. I can just use it like this halfway. But as I grew through the decades and getting older through my 30s and then 40, now 40s, I realized the root of that question was, how long can you neglect yourself and others around you? And that's what we do with our health is just saying, oh, I can put it off. I can wait. I can do it tomorrow. But inherently, it's the worth piece at question. And that's something that we can't fake it till we make it. We can't Instagram it. At the end of the day, when we put our head on the pillow, we know whether or not which areas we're putting our worth in. And it's never absolute. We're always going to have some areas where we shine in. But we know on the inside the areas that are going neglected that we're not facing and that we're saying, I'm not worth it over here in this section.

Tony: That's it right there. That worthiness is like you keep saying a whole nother podcast. That's definitely true. We might have to bring you back to complete this series. I love what you're saying about worthiness and you mentioned culture. What's coming up for me is I think about the culture and you mentioned also hustle mentality and all that. As you were talking, it made me think about how you mentioned well-being is the foundation for all of those things. You got to have your well-being established and then seek from there and then just continue to grow. But my question for you, I guess is, Do you see the lack of worthiness or the lack of seeking counseling and support, especially when you talk about the next generation? Do you see that as a cultural thing that's happening due to the society changes that we live in? You mentioned COVID, social media. really isolation, there's so many things that are so much different than the way that we all grew up to now. So what are you kind of seeing from a culture standpoint that's resulting in the outcomes that we face today from a well-being standpoint?

Rosa: When I think about my students, when I think about more from that angle, I have the opportunity to work with a student peer health education team. And with our department, we're the largest student employer on campus, with about 300 students. And of those, I have a more intimate group directly that I work with that's about 20. And when I think about students, big picture, since 2020 to now, They are more open to the conversation of counseling of therapeutic relationships of therapeutic practices That that is one positive that came out of all of this is that the culture around seeking? Mental health services is open that space is open and that opportunity is there Um, so that is an increase. I mean we we saw an upwards of probably 40% of students using or seeking services after COVID doesn't mean that it wasn't there already. Just now, oh, I have a safe space. I feel comfortable coming forward. I feel comfortable raising my hand and saying I need help. So that's, I think, a huge step in the right direction, because not only does it impact this generation, but they're taking those behaviors back to families. Um of older generations and making that help seeking behavior a norm A normal thing and so if I do it over here in the mental health arena Then once i'm comfortable there. I can also do it in the social and relationship arena. I mean there's friendship coaches now not just marriage coaches, but People who want to develop and have healthier friendships because it's not something that can just happen. It takes intention and attention and so I think in terms of mental well-being, students know they have resources. In fact, it can kind of start to go to the other extreme, where we throw too many things at them. This app, and that program, and this event. And so the cognitive overload can happen. But what I see more so than anything, and I'm a reader, I really, I mean, ever since being a little girl, I didn't even talk about any of that, of North Carolina, born and raised, got to get my North Carolina shout out in. But one of the things I see with students is the perfection piece, not having grace for self. And it's not just with them. They got it from somewhere. It's trickling down. It's the older generation that has to let go of that perfection as well. And that also ties into my well-being journey. And I think about a book that I was able to get at a conference two years ago, The Joy Choice by Michelle Seeger. And she talks about the all or nothing syndrome. And i'm definitely in that category and I was exposed after covet and my big fitness Crossfit journey and when I had a few injuries Because as my doctor said why are you throwing your body onto your arms on the floor and you're 40 something Um, so burpees are not for me, but I was doing that and then some so all of these achieve all of these goals that I had for CrossFit came to a halt because of COVID and not being able to go in person and because of injuries. But because of my all or nothing thinking, I slowly went to nothing. And just because I couldn't do the CrossFit intense high performance fitness activities like I was an athlete, which I was not, didn't mean that I could not walk, or do the elliptical or the treadmill. But it was the perfectionism because I wanted what I had. And I think that a lot of times we get stuck in regret because we want what we had and we're resisting, as my sister, my biological sister said, we're resisting life. I was like, oh, honey, that's good. Because it's it's a little bit touched. How can you resist something as big as life because life gonna win life is gone life And we will just be sitting there looking a little bit special. Like how are you going to resist aging? How are you going to resist injuries? It is what it is. So do what we can do And not hold on to this image of what it has to be or what it was in our heyday even if the heyday was five days ago or a week ago that we might not be able to do that, but that doesn't mean we can't do something. And it doesn't just apply to fitness. It applies to our relationship. It applies to where we're going to apply to so many things, but not having that all or nothing. So I think our young people are impacted by the perfectionism. Every grade doesn't have to be an A. It's OK. It's all right to get a B. And as one of my students so poignantly said, that she's an A plus human being. But she had to learn that from her first year to matriculating and graduating, that it's OK if I don't get an A in everything. But if I experience life and experience relationships and social, cultivate some other areas, I'm an A plus human being. I don't have to have A's in every class. And so I think that that's where we can grow with letting go of the perfection.

John: That's so timely. In my class yesterday, so I taught class yesterday. I teach yoga every Thursday here in Houston. And at the beginning of class, I talked about the origin of suffering and challenge. And it's from when what is is different from what you feel should be. And there's And looking back at the past, comparing ourselves to our past selves, comparing ourselves to others. And that's another thing that I think is so present nowadays with social media, like you mentioned, Tony, is it's not even just comparing yourself to your past and wanting to be at a place that you're not. But it's also wanting to be someone else because everyone's life or the highlights from everyone's life are so present for everyone that you can always feel like you are being less, doing less, accomplishing less. If you want to find something better out there, someone that's more successful, prettier in your eyes, whatever you're looking for, you can find it these days. It's so important in your well-being journey. That's why I always talk about the mindfulness piece of it. It's like being able to be where you are is another foundational part of well-being, I believe.

Rosa: Absolutely. Yeah, you hit it on the head, the suffering, undue suffering.

Tony: Rose, I was reading an article this morning. It kind of talked about some of the things that you were mentioning about the overworkedness or the ability to not be happy with where you are. And it made me think of this piece of the article that I wanted to throw at you. So they talked about Will Smith and his quote on the treadmill. I don't know if you've If you all have ever heard him mention that he's not afraid to die on the treadmill Um, he says that the only thing that's distinctly different about me is that i'm not afraid to die on the treadmill. I will not be outworked period the authors then said that While it's debatable whether pushing oneself to the limit to outwork. The next person is admirable quality we have witnessed students of color work themselves to the point of extreme illness in attempting to escape the constant threat of perceived intellectual inferiority. I wanted to know what you thought about that, because it's very timely with coming to some of the things that you were saying and what you're seeing and just your experience with that.

Rosa: Yeah, I have to take a moment of silence for that question. It is very relevant. And it's relevant not only for our students, but our staff and faculty of color as well. And it's personal because you're starting to get into my dissertation arena. So when I think about, historically, people who are already marginalized and oppressed, which we know Black people historically are, and sometimes historically is ironic because it feels very much present day because it is. Dr. Tamar Bryant, Pastor Jamal Bryant's sister, she's a counselor, powerful counselor. She, I saw Instagram or social media clip just this in the last 72 hours about the overworking Busying signing up for everything doing everything to try to prove that you are worthy basically and how this has to stop that we are just by simple being we are enough and But that does come from somewhere, everything that you just shared in the quote from the article. So when I think about that with our students, A, you have that happening to students who are at state institutions. That's one level. Then you have it happening to students who are even at HBCUs. And then you have it happening to students who are at PWIs. So each of those has their own I guess, look and feel. But across the board, it's happening. And the only way to settle that is we have to come to the end of it ourselves. Everybody has to find their own place where they will decide, you know what? I'm not going to be on that particular. I know that's not the way Will Smith meant it, but I'm not going to be on that treadmill or hamster wheel anymore. And I know in our doctoral world, it's known as stereotype threat. So we don't want to be perceived as lazy or as incapable or incompetent, so we overwork to try to counter this narrative. But it doesn't matter, because if it's a perception or bias that someone has, they're going to have it regardless. And that's not our issue to overcompensate for that. But that's an individual process that people have to come to by using those supports we talked about earlier. We can't get there on our own. It's got to be some practices in place, some coaches like John. In place like Tony in place, you know the Clifton strengths. I love Clifton strengths. I know you were a facilitator But we can't get there by ourselves. We've got to be able to be aware. Okay, what's my how am I wired? What are my triggers is my trigger when I don't feel I um respected at work or is my trigger when I feel like someone is not seeing my subject matter expertise we've got to identify it but that requires sitting down and journaling and mapping out our how we're wired and so for students it may be look at their journey through k-12 and kind of map out some pivotal points for professionals it might be mapping out a career journey Okay, what things do I see? Where was I having challenges? When did I quit a job? When did I want to leave a job? What supervisors or bosses did I have? Were our identities different? Like really literally mapping out the DNA of our career journey. And for students the dna of their student journey and being able to see where do I need? Where do I need strengthening? What areas am I already strong again? Um, I know i've kind of gone a long way around with your question but Yeah, it's a very deep it doesn't have a it's no easy answers because it has a historical context So the only way to really address it is to look at the layers and the pieces we can't control and we can't control systems. We can only try to speak truth to power, use our voice, advocate for ourselves, and get mentors and sponsors who can pull us to levels where we can't get on our own. And so for students definitely speaking to their professors speaking to administrators and using those resources that are there that sometimes they don't necessarily feel the confidence because of the power dynamics, but knowing that this is what your tuition dollars are paying for so. with as much whatever level they're on, use their voice, speak up, send an email, do the phone calls, stay after class, go to the office hour, but get help outside of just themselves.

Tony: Yeah, I think that is a perfect answer, a great answer. So thank you for saying everything you said. I think that speaks to so many things. I love the root of your answer, which is in self-awareness. that's some of the keys to what you mentioned. I think that speaks back to John's point about the power of coaching and even like you bring in CliftonStrengths and really having people have the ability to just be more self-aware of who their makeup truly is and what their makeup truly is. Then knowing you're enough, not that you are enough and you are worthy, but knowing what you're doing in society and in the ecosystem, whether you're an educator or you are a coach, or whether you are an aspiring artist. You are enough and you are doing enough in just who you are and what you are. Thank you for sharing it.

Rosa: You're welcome. I think that's good. Everyone won't be an influencer, quote unquote. Yeah, celebrating who we are and what we bring to the table.

John: you know on on that note there's something that i heard in there that's you know about like little t trauma like Everyone, when you're thinking about the history of your life, K through 12, your career journey, we all have built our personalities around life experiences. We all have triggers, we all have strengths. Doing the work is sitting with this, sitting with your past. sitting with the events in your life that maybe you didn't realize at the time, but you can see in hindsight had an influence on the way that you react to things now. I think doing that work is super important to being able to develop that self-awareness. Because you mentioned, everyone says enough is enough on their own time. Everyone gets to that place where they can accept themselves and give themselves grace on their own time. And I strongly believe a step along that process is accepting the fact that you've experienced some kind of trauma. Even if it's not a major life event, that there's something in your life that you've built personality strategies around in order to avoid a fear or satisfy a need. Every single human.

Tony: I just want to presence that for… And so has your favorite influencer or celebrity or person that you idolize too.

John: Everyone, everyone. And just like we mentioned earlier in the show is to leverage those resources that you have. We've mentioned EAPs or employee assistance programs. A lot of you listeners may have resources out there that are free and available for you. So make sure that you're utilizing those resources. A lot of times it may feel like that's extra time, like you're reaching for something, I could be doing something else that's more productive, but I guarantee you that it will be far less of a barrier to entry than you perceive at this moment. Just make sure that you're having the conversation, start your process of inquiry wherever you may be. Just know that that initial inertia looks bigger than it really is.

Tony: Yeah, and I want to point out one thing too, back to the point that you were making, Rose, about stereotype threat and being perceived as inferior. In the article, it also brought up a great story of Mark Henry. Or is it John Henry? I can't remember. But I think it's John Henry, as we all remember the great story of The individual who basically was super strong and he was responsible for um going up against a machine to prove his strength and at the end of the story or the end of the Race against the machine. He won as he was piling these Huge, I believe, uh, I don't want to call them nails But he was driving things into a railroad track to prove that he was stronger than a machine And when he won the race he got to the end and he died right there on the spot, his heart exploded. And I think that the essence of me bringing that story up is because we all are as strong as Mr. Henry, but we try to prove it by going up against this machine in our heads or on our phones to be doing so much extra to show the world how amazing we are. And really, we're super strong. It's not stronger than the machine just by being who we are. And, you know, in the CliftonStrengths models, the number one strength in America is achiever. The achiever strength is literally the one that is the hardest worker Achievers are people that won't let work slide by them. They will work all day all night to make sure that they Achieve whatever the task is and make sure that people know that they are smart intellectual and hard workers and so I just want to point that out because You know, we don't have anything to prove Like you said, that's just being human beings is it's enough

John: Rose, I want to circle back to one thing that you mentioned about organizations. Organizations and institutions and wellness programs, it was one part that you had mentioned about us throwing too many resources at people. I've seen that, I've experienced that where there's just too much to choose from, that it's difficult to focus in one area and know how these things are accessible. What are the sweet spots for organizations and institutions that you would recommend?

Rosa: Oh, goodness. Data. I know while you were sharing john about the little t trauma I thought about a previous podcast I think a very earlier podcast that you all did podcast episode rather and tony mentioned data on yourself And so I think one of the things that organizations can do is use the qualitative and quantitative data to let that speak for what are the inherent needs of their people and what program offerings should be ramped up or made more robust and which ones should probably be sunset or put less resource to. That is going to be the most strategic way as opposed to a bright idea catchy phrase. Someone saw what we used to do Follow the data and let that Determine where the resources where the people power where the financial funding is put

John: So instead of just adding amenities, like having more of a strategic approach to the programs that you deliver, maybe even having seasons of different programs, but something for your organization, your team to focus on that is more tailored toward their needs. And is that, I'm guessing, like when follow the data, is that just surveying? Is that how do a lot of folks get the right data for their team to target these programs?

Rosa: I think surveys are done often because they can sometimes be easier one of the ways that I would that I Particularly would like to be able to do more. It's focus groups and really hearing the voice of the people listen to your people and Actually implement it and put it to use but I think focus groups can be powerful because you are able to get or hear multiple voices at once, as opposed to one-on-one interviews. And it gives you the rich qualitative data. It gives you the story behind the numbers and the real people that are attached. You can't deny lived experience. So I think focus groups are a powerful way to also determine what programs, what resources are put into place. But leading through listening, you can't go wrong there.

John: I love that leading through listening and that, I mean, you're right. There really is no better way and focus groups approach. I really love that and want to recommend that more to some of the leaders that I work with.

Rosa: It's not that you can't have the surveys, but use the focus groups to really tease out more of what are the numbers saying, what are the nuances, what's the context. But when you put them both together, I think it can be powerful.

John: I agree. Now, as we close out each of these conversations, I just want to ask a few questions that maybe just a little rapid fire, you don't have to think too much about the answer. But if there were one resource that made the biggest difference for you that you would recommend to our listeners, what would it be?

Rosa: It cut out, I think you said resource, but can you say that one more time, John?

John: Of course. If there were one resource that you could recommend for our listeners that made the biggest difference for you in your life, your journey, what would you recommend?

Rosa: That's a great question. I would love to name a book or an article But honestly, you know some things resonate with some people and not others At this moment i'm thinking about A therapeutic outlet for me Which is music And for others it might be art Or it might be spoken word but honestly, I think the biggest resource we can do is something if we trace back to our happiest time as a child, and what were we doing? For some, it's going to be they were building with their Legos. For others, it's going to be that they were taking something apart and putting it back together. For others, like when I think about the Wendy Williams by the Iopic, she was pretending to be a radio personality. Whatever we were doing at our earliest self is probably a big clue into where we can find energy joy and healing And that would be my suggestion To go back to where you started and find home And then you can add the other books and articles and podcasts and blogs. But to be more organic of where do I lose myself? What can I just do and not think about it? Or I light up when I talk about it, or I might just feel like, oh, nobody's going to understand this, but I'm going to talk about it anyway, even if I'm embarrassed. What is that thing that is you and makes you you, your essence?

John: Do that more I love that I couldn't agree more One more question And I got one after you Okay Who's someone that you admire and why?

Rosa: Viola davis Mind blowing finding me I don't even have words for how I laughed, I cried, I was healed. Reading her book, and I've read many, was just an experience that I can't describe. I truly want to meet her and know and understand more but her journey in life. It made me appreciate my own But I definitely admire her body of work as an actress But I respect her even the more after reading and learning more about her journey and her healing dynamic woman you know, she is She has a range I had not a ring on screen and Well, yeah, I mean I was I was okay with just her body of work, but then I messed around and picked up her book And my life was changed

Tony: Wow, I have a question that's a little different but still I think very powerful for people listening is that for those that find themselves on the journey of healing or on the journey of well-being and they're on the right track or even as leaders who are leaders of people and organizations and humanity, how do you recognize when others are not well? What how do you spot that?

Rosa: And what is a leader to do especially of a person that is maybe not a coach and they're not a wellness expert So with my faith background and journey and I do identify as christian And I rely on the holy spirit there's discernment And it can be somebody can say just as high-pitched or look just as fine, but something about it was off. And you just know. But I think when you have any kind of, and it doesn't matter someone's spiritual background or they have any kind of feeling, to go with that, to not dismiss it, and to, when appropriate and when there's the right space, pull that person to the side. No, really, how are you? I just I'm and you can tell me if i'm wrong, but I feel like something's off and I want you to know that i'm here, but if not me I want to connect you to What could help or what you need? So leaders can kind of unburden themselves or take that weight off themselves and be okay with their limits That they do not have to have a cape on it simply takes the holding space To at least say I don't have to be that one But I want to support you. How can I best support you or how can I best show up for you right now? I want you to know that I see you and I care and i'm concerned No one can fault you for Doing that but when you do nothing or you dismiss or you let fear stand in the way that's when You have that regret feeling or that hesitation of I should have Most of us have a sense of when something's off, even if it's a stranger. And so follow that and at least be willing to say two words, you know, to really make it not about us and not be self-conscious. in terms of, oh, self-consciousness means I'm focusing on me. Oh, what will they think? Oh, what if I say the wrong thing? Oh, no, it's not about us. It's about that person. So truly making it about them and making sure that they leave your space better than they came. And so when the people that I lead, when I've had the opportunity to lead teams, I think about them being in my care. And so they are the priority. And are they well? It goes back to what I said in the beginning. How are they being handled? And how am I handling them? And if I think from that perspective, I'm thinking about it as if they were a child. We tend to feel limitless when it's with children, that we can be vulnerable and care for them. Well, it's the same. We're caring for a person who, on the inside, has some areas of them that is still maybe unhealed or like a child. But really thinking about how would I care for this person if they were my relative? How would I care for them if they were a child? Then I think we take some of those limits and barriers off.

John: Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you did with us this morning. We are so grateful for you. We're so grateful for our listeners to be able to get to experience you. Is there anything else that you'd want to leave with our listeners, a way to connect with you or anything, any last words?

Rosa: Thank you was one. Yeah, I think I'll just end where we began on that we deserve to thrive. We don't have to struggle and survive and suffer, but we do honestly deserve to thrive and whatever that looks like for us.

John: Well, thank you so much. And then thank you all for being listeners of the present professional. You can catch us at the present professional.com and let us know how you feel. Love to hear feedback about the episode and anywhere that you're listening, please leave us a review, rate us and review us anywhere that you're listening to podcasts. And we will see you next time, my friends.