John: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

John: To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today, we're here to talk to you about self-sabotage. And this is something that can show up in so many different ways in our lives. And I've seen it show up so frequently in the lives of my clients and friends and relationships. There's just so much to talk about around this topic. and I want to kick it off with a quote that I've had on my refrigerator actually for many years since 2017 I believe I was handed this little magnet with this quote on and it's been up there ever since so it's resignation masquerades as reason And there's always a great reason for not doing something, for not stepping out to, say, start your own company, to speak up at the meeting table, to take on the initiative that is going to ruffle some feathers and change the status quo. It is, there are so many reasons not to do that, to stay, to stay the way you are, to stay, keep things the way that they are. But then at the same time, you have to sit with that and say, you know, am I really resigning here or is this a sound reason that I want to follow? And, you know, that's been my beacon, like something I see all the time and something I remind myself of, like it's a quick thing that a quick line that helps me think about, you know, when I'm choosing not to do something or not to move forward on something. Am I making excuses or reasons or am I resigning? Right? And in this episode, we're going to talk a little bit about different ways that it can show up in your life, different areas that it'll show up in your life and how to recognize those. And then tools that you can use and practices, you know, even mental exercises that you can use to start moving through some of this self sabotage. So I'll let Tony kick off. His thoughts on it and then we'll get into all of that.

Tony: Yeah Man, I think you definitely laid it out pretty good with that quote. I never heard that quote before I'm a I'm a quote master So I'm definitely like interested to to write that down in my own little little notebook, but you know one thing I can say, just to not get too deep into the subject just yet, is that one of the quick, easy ways to defeat self-sabotage is to move in love. Because when you operate in love, and what I mean by that is when you operate with love as your guiding principle, that is a way that you can defeat self-sabotage because you can love yourself through your actions. Then that leads to you loving other people with your time, your energy, and whatever it is that you're doing or working toward. Because one of the pieces of self-sabotage that brings people down is unworthiness, feeling like they don't deserve it, feeling like you have imposter syndrome, all those things. And when you can realize that you belong and that you're supposed to be there and that you you know, no matter how you may feel with your emotional state, because that's where it all kind of lies in, when you operate with that kind of love transferable energy, then you're able to stand in the midst of the storm or stand when you feel like you don't belong at the table or that you don't belong wherever it may be, but you can remind yourself that you do love yourself. You do move in love. Even if you may, quote unquote, not belong there, you have a loving spirit and a loving energy to where people can't pick up on that. People won't pick up on that because you are literally there to add value and you're literally there to provide the knowledge and the resources and the information to other people, and that information is what got you to the seat at the table. That energy, that expertise that you actually have is what got you there. And so when you operate in love and you're like, I love myself, I do belong here, it just completely mitigates self-sabotage because the anti of love is hate, or some people say it's not, it's no emotion. But when you move like that with yourself, like if you tell yourself, you know, I don't deserve this, I shouldn't be here. That energy just comes off and other people catch that and then they feel like you are a difficult person to deal with or a difficult person to be around or they may feel your negative energy and then they shut down and then you both shut down and then you just move on but really you You started it with your lack of love for yourself and that lack of love transferred onto other people and then now you find yourself maybe alone or find yourself isolated and then you wonder why. And it's because you may have a lack of love for yourself. So I want to bring that in before we even jump into some of the deeper parts.

John: yeah i'd say that you know your self-care and self-love i agree is a big part of it because you know self-sabotage is the opposite of that you're exactly right and you know what are some other even like more subtle ways that it can show up right it can be procrastination right like Well, not yet. Maybe later. Other things are taking priority right now. And then the thing that you wanted to work on or the conversation that you wanted to have, there's, it just keeps getting pushed down the road. And the more that things get pushed down the road, the more that this fear builds. of having the conversation, of stepping out, of making the comment, of doing the thing. It's the more you push it down the road, because there are other more important things to do or more important things to say at the time, the bigger that it gets in the background. the more daunting it gets to then address later on. So it's, you know, there's a little, it just creeps in in some ways in that and, you know, also like comparing yourself to others, right? That can be another big thing of self-sabotaging, like not being within your process. I think that's a big part of self-love, like you mentioned, is you know, respecting where you're at in your growth, development, financial status, relationship status, wherever you're at, and like being grateful for where you're at, right? When we start comparing ourselves to others, like I should be where he or she is, my company should be here right now and we're not. So, but it's like, where have you come thus far? Like compare yourself only to maybe your old self or what you learned over that time. Once we start kind of looking all around, you can always find something, someone that has more than you, that is doing more than you, that is doing things differently than you. It's just inevitable. But can you take that energy and bring it back on what you want to do, what you want to create, and what you can be grateful for right now in your life? And that energy that you mentioned, like that energy of love, you're bringing things back to yourself. You're bringing yourself the energy to love. It comes out in so many different things. I mean, the biggest thing, right, is just staying in your comfort zone. There's, you know, we self-sabotage to keep ourselves safe. You know, when you look at it, you almost have to honor it a little bit. Like, you know, thank you. I understand what you're trying to do to support me by, you know, keeping me in comfort by not having to embrace change by, you know, staying in, staying in a relationship that's familiar to me, even though I know it's not right for me. Like it's the self sabotaging is ultimately trying to keep you safe. Yet, you know, safety when it comes to that primitive part of the mind is what is familiar is, you know, not as thinking that I'm going to be safe like I'm not going I'm not going to die. It's not the unknown. I'm not stepping out into the Savannah where, you know, I could be attacked. But then, ultimately, when you take that step, it's not that bad. When you make the change, when you embrace the change, you look back. I mean, think about any change that you went through in your life. You look back and you're like, wow, you know, really wasn't that bad. But I bet before you made the choice, there was, you know, there was peril on the other end. I can't even think of how difficult it was for me to even take the step from a successful full-time corporate role and stepping into the unknown of entrepreneurship. I had never been out on my own before. I had never ran a business before. There were so many reasons not to do it. So many reasons, but then when the fear of never trying at all became greater than the fear of what could possibly happen is when I was able to take the step. So it's looking at what is this fear holding you back from? What is the ambivalence holding you back from? And starting to bring that more into your consciousness and move toward what it's holding you back from.

Tony: Yeah, you know, a lot of it is rooted in, I think we talked about this before, but self-efficacy. And so just to remind the professionals out there that's listening, you know, self-efficacy is your ability to perceive your own goals or perceive your own self before you get started in a task. And so You know it even shows up in DEI so you know I was doing some research on this last week and earlier this week and an example of it is when a let's say a candidate for a job is going through the interview process and you can literally self-sabotage your entire job opportunity by not having high self-efficacy or just letting that creep of self-sabotage kind of just slowly enter. So, for example, you can have a woman who is applying for a position that she feels that she should get, but maybe she has, you know, a little bit of imposter syndrome or maybe more importantly, she's been let down before. She's been at the door of receiving a new position and she's been turned away. even though she was highly qualified or she made it to the end of interviews and they pick someone else and that person may not have looked like her or whatever it may be. Well, self-sabotage can creep in in that interview where you are interviewing for that position and you are literally thinking, I'm not going to get this job. I have justifiable reasons why I'm not going to get this job. I'm just gonna go ahead and sit back and hold back and not give my all to the interview process. Or even a question that's asked in the interview, you kind of self-sabotagingly, lacklustery answer a question in a way where it's like, Hmm. Well, that wasn't the best answer. And you know, it was the best answer. But you feel that you aren't going to get the job anyway. So I just wanted to bring in some D perspective on self sabotage, because it definitely exists even before a person gets a job. not even to mention what happens after they get the job and when they're on the job. And that's when it really can heighten up. But for a lot of people, it does start in the beginning. And even if they go through the process, they have the self-sabotage during the interview and they end up getting the role. The nucleus could have been before they even entered into the company. So for people who are managing BIPOC individuals, think about that as you are going through the process of working with them. It may be something long-standing. A lot of self-sabotage is people looking into the past with real examples of things that have happened, but then it's also, like John mentioned, the fear of the future and the fear of what if. And for a lot of corporate professionals, it's the fear of being let go, which can disrupt households and lifestyles. So I just wanted to throw that in there too.

John: Man, you brought up a really good point that I want to add on to a little bit the when it comes to say an interview or, you know, looking at a promotion or a new role or something like that. A lot of times this fear and it comes in kind of sneaky on that. about you know the responsibilities and you know what the other job may entail it's like sometimes that self-sabotaging behavior in an interview like that or you know you notice you're starting to act out a little bit you know you're not really Because sometimes your subconscious mind doesn't want to get except like doesn't want to take on the new role You know while it's exciting. Maybe it's more money. You're learning and diversifying your background in the company But like your mind your subconscious mind is thinking man you know let me think of a lot of reasons why I shouldn't get this because I That's gonna come with a lot of change a lot of uncertainty more responsibility and we start blowing up this picture in our mind, too And then I love that you also, you know brought up from a DEI lens is some of the self-sabotaging behavior is culturally ingrained is, you know, from your from history and from even from your family. You know, if you come from, if you come from, you know, a low, low income family, low kind of like low standards say that, you know, was just kind of, you know, wasn't really advancing in their career and you're coming from more of a job mindset family and you're maybe the first one that's having a career mindset and really stepping into higher levels of leadership in your family. The self-sabotaging behavior can come in because the job mindset is all you've known growing up. So it could be that, well, I'm okay right here because my family has always been okay right here. So why step up into taking all this responsibility? Is it just for the money? Well, you know, my family did okay with the money that we made. Life was good, so why step up into that? I'm speaking from the subconscious mind here. You might not consciously be saying that. Consciously, you might be saying, I'm excited for the promotion. I have an interview coming up. You might be consciously preparing for it, talking to people about it, getting other perspectives. But self-sabotage comes up sneakily. It comes in the form of, you know, maybe you do answer that question in a way that you wouldn't have. Maybe you stay up too late the night before the interview and just saying, you know, I was nervous. But really, you know, subconsciously you want to be tired. You want to screw it up subconsciously. It's sneaky. It's sneaky. So I love that you brought up the, you know, cultural part of it. And because there are so many different things that come from our past and our conditioning and our childhood that leads to a lot of this behavior as well.

Tony: Yeah. And, you know, just to piggyback on that from another perspective is that even though those things exist, the environment, the the the for the example of entrepreneurship and the lack of entrepreneurship in the family or a job mindset, the beauty of all this is that if you can master really yourself i'm not gonna say master self-sabotage but if you can master yourself in a way where you can use that as fuel to do the opposite of self-sabotage and like drive yourself to success that happens too there's a lot of stories about people who were the first in their family or people who Stepped out when people told them not to do certain things and they use that as fuel like literally rocket fuel to cascade themselves into a different stratosphere or a different level of life that the entire family has never seen so. Don't let the naysayers or the negativity from the outside affect you on the inside. If you know your end goal and you can see it, you have a vision for it, then go for that because it's easy for someone to place limiting thoughts on you that end up becoming reality. One of the biggest pieces about self-sabotage from a scientific perspective is literally self-fulfilling prophecies and that happens when people start to believe that they aren't good enough and then they literally walk down that path and live their life just like that. Steve Harvey had a great little video where he was saying that he was really talking about this subject but what he said was you can have a kid tell his mom, mom I want to be a millionaire and the mom says boy sit down there's no millionaires in this family and he's like oh yeah you're right and then that's just where the dream ends right there but sometimes mama might not be the one you need to talk to maybe it's the uncle that nobody in the family talks to because he's so different and you find out he's the millionaire, right? So, you know, it's all different, but it hits everybody differently. But yeah, it really does exist, man. And, you know, you really do have to regulate your emotions with self-sabotage to avoid walking into traps. There's so many traps. There's overeating, there's isolation, there's substance abuse. There's so many ways that people find ways to cope with self, sabotage in unhealthy ways and, you know, even if it's minimal or even if it's monitored, just really be mindful of the way that you cope. I even think binge watching is probably a way that people cope with self-sabotage. Mm-hmm. And so Everything is ain't nothing is wrong with any of these things. I think that everything is okay in moderation, but being mindful of what's happening is The key know that it's happened.

John: That's a perfect segue Because the first step is noticing this inner voice, right? How do you do that? That's through your mindfulness practice it's through developing self-awareness to a new level that is you are not even experiencing today to really sit with yourself and not just sitting in meditation, but can you check in throughout your day to see what are the quality of my thoughts right now? Am I self-criticizing? Is there negative self-talk and self-criticism about my actions or my goals or what's happening in my life? and noticing that as it's happening and saying, let me choose another thought. How can I look at this situation differently? Maybe it's showing up as perfectionism or where everything needs to be perfect, So you spend time working on one thing to get it perfect when you could have finished ten things and moved Way farther down your path to where you want to go it can and that you know that can show up in Relationships too, you know talk about you know perfectionism in the finding the perfect mate You know, no, none of us are perfect Mm-hmm period we talked about procrastination already. We talked about resisting change and then even poor self-care it's Like and that was another thing poor self-care. Like I mentioned just previously in the interview like saying, you know I couldn't sleep because I've been thinking about the interview like now that's poor self-care and you know that can that can be showing up as self-sabotage right so the key is noticing that these thoughts are happening yeah right because then you can make a different choice but when you're not aware of your subconscious mind and these things that are happening in the background they will continue to occur without your conscious attention So now once you've brought your conscious attention to them, then you can make a different choice. Then you can say, then you can change your language, change your thoughts, change the way that you're looking at your partner. And you know, I work on this with clients a good bit about, you know, when I noticed them spotting all of the things that are wrong about their life. And I say, we're just bringing it to their awareness about, you're wrongspotting right now. What if we were to think about what's right about your partner? What's right about your job? What's right about your family? and like think about those qualities and you know like i just mentioned with the perfectionism in relationships and how it can show up in your romantic relationships is you know we oh my gosh i think this is like the biggest place of self-sabotage i know it was a There was a place for me in the past where I had done things like this out of, it really is out of fear of loss, fear of abandonment, fear of, you know, it's, and that's my responsibility. You know, like it's not my partner's responsibility to make me feel safe in myself. Mm-hmm, right that was a huge shift for me in being a partner in things that I bring into my relationship now of You know, it's my responsibility to be happy like it's my responsibility to look at when I'm triggered You know what's happening in my mind not what did she do that triggered me? Mm-hmm Right. It's like what what made that triggering to me? I And now I can look at that and a lot of times I work out feelings on my own and it's okay, I can choose to be upset about something that's completely out of my control. I can learn from what's happened or, you know, or I can make a request. Right. And that's all we can do of our partners is, you know, if, you know, next time, next time, do you think that maybe we could have a conversation before, you know, before we start bringing other people into the conversation? Like there's just little things that can happen that you can make a request on. But other than that, you got to look at yourself. right? You know, if you're starting to blame or pick fights or like give the silent treatment, you know, like the, Oh, the nothing's wrong thing or constantly seeking reassurance, like that it's, it shows up. So, because it's such a dynamic situation when you're putting your heart on the line, like this is your partner and When we have our heart on the line and we're in that vulnerable place, oh man, the primitive mind just wants to be safe. Make me feel safe. Make me feel loved. Make me feel important. But these are all things that you're looking for in your partner that you have to give yourself first. Know you're important. Love yourself. Yes. Right. Reassure yourself you're going to be OK. And whether that's, you know, double downing on your spiritual practice, reconnecting with loved ones and friends and family, you know, finding purpose in your career. There's so much that you can feel reassured in yourself and then share that energy with your partner. Yeah. They let them not even like just the way that they see you be reassuring because of your way of being not because that's what you need from them. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Tony: So I was a little rant there. Oh, man, that was powerful, bro. That's that's a that's relationship coaching one on one right there. And seriously, seriously, though, that's why I started off talking about love, which is rare. People don't talk about love a lot, especially guys, right? You know, I gave a talk at my university a little while back, and that was the first thing I told them was love. Like, you need to figure out your love situation. And not love as in partnership love or relationship love, but really self-love like we're talking about here because That I believe is the, I think that's the medicine that the country needs. If we had more love, I just feel like, self-love specifically, I feel like people will walk around with so much more delight in their day as opposed to this like scarcity mindset, this fear mindset, this you're going to take from me so I'm going to guard mine, you're going to get to your destination faster than me so I'm not going to let you in to the lane that I'm driving, I'm going to cut you off, like all this like, it's just like brutal. And it doesn't have to be like that. And I think that, you know, it just all ties in very well. And I like how you brought in a relationship piece because, you know, I definitely can attest to that. And it's so much better, a relationship is so much better when two people are whole and they show up whole and then they can pour into each other when that other person is maybe feeling 80%. and then you're feeling 120. Well let me give you 20 percent of me because I got 100 anyway and I can see you need 20 right now so let me give you 20. Or we both show up at 90 and we're both like yeah you're okay yeah I'm good too yeah okay let's do this thing you know or if someone is going through one the partner is going through something and they're feeling at 50 You know, it's so much better when one person is at 150 and can pour into the other. So I think you get where I'm going. But it's just it starts with self, though. Like if two people, if two people are showing up at 50, do you think that's going to be a healthy relationship? The answer is no. And we can we can. lie to ourselves and say, no, I mean, love conquers all. It's like, OK, but if you like two people are like are unfulfilled or don't love themselves like they should, then it definitely is going to lead to turmoil. And more importantly, I don't think the relationship will grow. I think that's the that's the biggest concern is a relationship. And I'm just speaking for my opinion. These are my views. I feel like a point of a relationship is for it to grow, is to grow as a couple, grow into, you know, hopefully a marriage, grow into a family, like all that takes growth. And so if you're not personally growing or developing or at least whole, like you're happy with your individual life, then it's harder to grow. It's harder to create that foundation for children and even in the future, grandchildren. I love what you're saying there, and I know we've kind of been going around and around. I want to bring in some more scientific elements of self-sabotage. So the brain. So the human brain is wired to seek pleasure and avoid pain, but we engage in procrastination or substance abuse or overeating or binge watching because then we take that short-term pleasure And we're seeking that pleasure that our brain naturally requires and our brain is naturally seeking at the expense of our long-term goals. So this can lead to dysregulation in our life because we have now a heightened sensitivity to immediate rewards. Like, let me get through this entire season of Game of Thrones in this two days. Let me get through the whole thing. and that leads to a decreased sensitivity to our future consequences. So I think that if we can look at our future and where we want to be and where we want to go a little more, a lot more often before we make those short-term decisions, that's a good way to have a healthy balance. I talked about self-fulfilling prophecies a lot and emotional regulations, and I'll just throw in a couple more, like social learning. And so this is imitating the people around you, imitating the people that You grew up with imitating the environments that you're in, the places that are common, and just that social pressure that can lead to self-sabotage. So you can, for example, you may have pressure to conform in a certain environment that you're in or setting that you're in, and you may not want to actually be that or do that anymore, but you're there. And so that social pressure can definitely lead to self-sabotage, peer pressure, bullying, or whatever it may be. And it's hard to choose the opposite. I would recommend that you just don't show up and you don't go. until you are that person, that new version of yourself that can show up and can decline or can say no, and then you're respected, where people would say, oh yeah, he doesn't do that, or that's how he is. And then the last one is personality traits, which I definitely am a victim of perfectionism, which perfectionism can lead to low self-esteem, which I'm not gonna say the two align for me, I think I'm still pretty high self-esteem, but it can increase to it. It can lead to an increase in self-sabotage. So, for example, when people who have high perfectionism traits fail, they can avoid trying new things, like you mentioned earlier, John, about switching into entrepreneurship, or they can limit their opportunities for growth and success. So that's more of a blind spot for people who have like perfectionism traits. I think all of us do to a degree in different ways. But just be mindful of blind spots, which could be where you don't want to try anymore because you didn't reach your 100 out of 100 target. You reached maybe 80 out of 100. And then now you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. And it's actually still very possible for you to be successful with what you're doing.

John: You mentioned a couple of things that I feel like can be tied together as a chronic procrastinator in the past. I'm very familiar with, I think I brought it up on the show before about the procrastinator's mind and the instant gratification monkey because that's that reward system that you talked about in the brain, right? What's easy and fun right now? And your your brain loves to do that. Mm-hmm and you know the last part that you mentioned about relationships when two folks come into a relationship at 5050 and I wanted to say that you can start off there and If you're both trying to get to 100 on your own, but when you show up as 50-50 and expecting the other person to make your 50, to give you that other 50 that you're lacking, right then they're at zero.

Tony: Are you regress you show up fifty-fifty and now you both are twenty-five sixty I mean twenty-five thirty and it's like you slide.

John: I mean that's the that's the thing is like it's it's going in you know you can both be on a path of self growth of your own, your own learning and development, your own therapy, working through issues, working with coaches, working on yourself, right? Journaling, meditating, whatever. And you can support each other in that in your personal growth. But then, you know, once you start reaching for the easy thing and the solutions being in your partner, like the same thing that we're talking about with the brain, you know, it just, it just leads to downward spiraling. You will never complete yourself with someone else ever.

Tony: And I just want to I just want to chime in right here real quick and say that the beauty of partnership and relationship is that now you have an accountability buddy. Now you have somebody that you can share goals with, set goals with to attain that 100 that you may be seeking from your 50 and their 50. So.

John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I had to had a circle back to that the and the procrastinators mind and the reward system in the brain that you're talking about I mean that that system is the source of self-sabotage just period yep right you're you're sacrificing your long-term aspirations and true joy for what's easy and fun today or what's comfortable today right and here on the present professional We're about stepping into something new. We're not about hanging out at the status quo. So if you're here, you're listening, you're interested in investing in yourself. You're interested in becoming aware of these things that can hold you back from realizing your full potential. And it's day by day. Can you see a little bit more today than you did yesterday? And if you regress, just step right back on the field. Mm-hmm. It's about the incremental progress over Years. Yeah, this is a lifelong practice and it's never and that's why That's why I just love the parallels between yoga meditation and like in these self-awareness Practices because there's no like I've reached it, you know, I'm here now and I'm self-aware and I don't have to do anything anymore and nothing you know there's there's no there's no practices no more work i have to do i've arrived that's right no like you stop your practices you stop looking at your mind your mind will go back to the primitive way of being. It's just the way it is. So it's, if you're committing to this lifestyle, you're committing to the practice. Not winning the game, you're committing to practicing every day, noticing when you've stopped practicing, noticing when you're starting to regress into old behaviors, and you're not shaming yourself. You're just getting right back on your practice.

Tony: Man, before we wrap up, I got to say this too, because I don't want people to leave and misinterpret a piece of self-sabotage that we didn't kind of touch on, which is overworking and avoidance of things as well. So we talked about Netflix and substance abuse and overeating, but Don't trade all that to overwork either, because that is also actually a form of self-sabotage in a sense of avoidance. So maybe you're avoiding a tough conversation, you're avoiding people, you're avoiding relationship building by just hunkering down and tripling down on work. Or maybe you're not actually doing that intentionally. Maybe you're working so hard because you feel that, well, I don't want to fall into binge watching again. I don't want to fall into drinking or smoking. I don't want to Whatever it may, listen, I think Jon and I both probably agree, because we said this before, that balance is the goal, right? Spending healthy time with friends and family. Don't eliminate relationships for the sake of, quote unquote, productivity. Don't overwork so much that you now are unavailable. So find that balance and watch those Netflix shows. And I said, don't do that. Please, find your peace, find your truth, find your 100 that you're trying to live at and operate at, because it's all different for all of us.

John: Find your 100. I love it. Great way to sign off. Thanks, Tony. And thank you guys all for listening. We appreciate having you as listeners, and we would love to get your feedback. So please rate us and review us anywhere that you're listening right now. and look for more information on the presentprofessionalpodcast.com. We'd love to hear your feedback and any ideas that you have for future episodes. So continue listening, find your 100, and we'll see you next time.